Anna Sonoda, LCSW (00:01)
We cannot always rely on extended family to do the right thing, but every single adult has the ability to interrupt the grooming process because after today they know what the grooming process looks like. It looks sweet at the start. It looks like pulling a child further and further away from
Kristi McVee (00:11)
Yes.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (00:20)
their normal activities, their peers. It looks like giving them opportunities to break rules, to change who they are in order to confirm and can get closer with that other individual, therefore creating more and more space with us when we should really be the cornerstone for that child.
Kristi McVee (00:35)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:38)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:35)
Hello and welcome back to Conversations with Kristi. Actually, this is the first podcast of the year with Conversations with Kristi, which is the new name of the podcast, because last year it was the CAPE podcast, which was child abuse prevention and education. But I realized that I do a lot of talking with lots of amazing people like the amazing Anna Sonoda today. And I thought, why not name it Conversations with Kristi? Because it sounds much more catchier. So I'm with Anna Sonoda, who is an amazing
social worker but I'll get I'll let her explain her work but she wrote the book Duck Duck Groom. She's a mother of five, she's got all of this amazing wisdom and knowledge to tell us because she worked with convicted sex offenders, she's worked in mental health, she's worked with providing all sorts of services and I saw a podcast that Anna did with Nikki from
Anna, what was her podcast name?
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (02:25)
Her podcast name, Kristi, is scrolling to death.
Kristi McVee (02:28)
That's
it. I love that podcast and I can't believe I just went blank on it. so she's Anna, Anna's been on there and I listened to Anna and I'm so glad you reached out and said, hey, I'd love to be on your podcast because I know just in speaking to Anna before that we hit record and all of the stuff I've seen her present on is so much similar to what I've written in my book. So it's crazy to think that two people from two different backgrounds, two different continents.
have such a similar opinion about grooming, about child sex offending. And so I'm so glad to have you here. Thanks so much, Anna.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (03:04)
Thank you for having me, Kristi. I'm so delighted to be in conversation with you and with your audience.
Kristi McVee (03:09)
Yeah and it's so cool because the internet as scary as it can be for some parents right and it's so amazing for us because we get to talk on two different continents, two different time zones and it's over there at like 9.30 at night, I'm here at 9.30 in the morning so yeah it's amazing.
And I just wanted you, for the audience and for people listening, can you just tell them about how basically you got here to the point of like talking about grooming? So where did you start and what led you down this path?
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (03:38)
Yeah, Kristi, I think it all began when I decided to get my master's in social work. And when you do your master's degree here in the States, you have to do what's called a practicum, which means you go out into the field and you experience clinical settings. So as I sat reviewing the paperwork alongside three of my closest fellow students, and they were thinking, I want to work with children. somebody else said I want to work in a food bank.
and I kept looking and thinking, that just, you I really want to get into the meat of things and I want real clinical experience. And I came across one offering which was convicted sex offenders in a cognitive behavioral therapy treatment center. And I thought, you know, I know nothing about sex offenders. And so I posed the question to my fellow peers and they said, with great vehemence, I
Kristi McVee (04:06)
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (04:33)
cannot believe you would even consider going and speaking to those people. And I said, at the time I really had aspirations of maybe doing some couples work or mediation. And I thought, if I can counsel convicted sex offenders, I'm quite sure that I could manage married couples or couples in disputes in the future. Right.
Kristi McVee (04:53)
handle anything. You can handle anything
after that. Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (04:58)
So
indeed I was selected and spent time working one-on-one doing cognitive behavioral therapy, weekly group therapy, and then when opportunities arose, being able to do couples work within the context of individuals who had partners who were willing to come in for sessions. And really what I learned from that experience was predators are everywhere, but they're not everyone. And I began short
thereafter developing my own family and raising my own children and I found that again and again I was having the same conversations with friends at the park or other moms walking in the playground and they would say, I'm scared of that man over there who's standing by the car and I would say, I'm not scared about him at all. I'm scared about the neighbor who we let in and have no qualms about and they would look at me strangely and I would think
wow I keep having the same conversation again and again. What do I need to do differently as someone who has this information? Just as you have Kristi, once you've seen the world with a certain lens, it's very hard to unsee. And I...
set out about four years ago to write this book, Duck Duck Groom, Understanding How a Child Becomes a Target, because I felt as if most people on the front lines, whether they be parents, grandparents, teachers, daycare workers, professionals, so many people don't get the proper training, they don't get the proper education, and I had something to provide not only my lens from working with clinical, in that clinical
setting with convicted sex offenders, but also being a mom and recognizing that I had the opportunity through my children's schooling environments, through their activities, to come in contact with adults who maybe wanted to groom my children and my response and my awareness altered the course of those behaviors simply because of my awareness that grooming is selective, intentional, incremental, so therefore it's observable and we don't do it
Kristi McVee (06:39)
Mm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (07:03)
enough justice in educating parents about just how observable it is, because if it's observable, it means it's intervenable. It's interruptable, Kristi. So that's what I'm here to share with your audience today. And I'm just delighted that we're having this conversation and bringing grooming into the forefront.
Kristi McVee (07:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, I have the exact same almost story because I was in at my daughter's sports and at her school and I was explaining like what I was doing working in the police and it's exactly the same and they were like
I never knew that or what are you talking about? you know, and I was having similar conversations all the time. And it was, it just could, I just couldn't understand why people didn't understand it like I did. But it's, it's because we had that oversight, we almost were like that magnifying glass looking down and we could see it. But not everyone has that experience. Not everyone has that awareness. And it's not until you
work in these industries, I guess, and work in these careers, that you can see it for what it is and how it works. And it seems so obvious to us.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (08:04)
And Kristi, I'm really glad you brought that up because parents...
shouldn't be punished for what they don't know. We've actually gone about this educational process about child sex abuse in the wrong way. And I am on a mission to educate just like any other public health issue, right? We talk about the signs of a stroke. We talk about the signs of a heart attack. Equally, we could be doing a far better job of educating people about what are the signs of grooming? How would I know grooming between somebody being nice compared to somebody who may be
Kristi McVee (08:10)
Exactly.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (08:35)
potentially grooming me. And it's so important for parents to realize that it's not just the child who's groomed. It's really about a systemic attempt on the part of the predator to build trust and gain your assurance as a parent and as a coworker or as a neighbor. And that's something that can often be scary to adults that I talk to. But honestly, once you learn exactly what to look for, you actually feel
empowered. I've had several people since the book came out who've contacted me who said, I interrupted something. I stood up at a time when maybe a year ago I would never have thought to stand up and I interrupted something. And that's the difference because we actually have the power, whether it's in Australia or here in America or anywhere in between, to prevent this disastrous event occurring for a child and for a family.
Kristi McVee (09:22)
Anyway.
Yeah, and you pointed it out before we started recording. The grooming behaviors that we see in Australia, that you see in the US, it's universal, it's global. They're exactly the same steps that they take. And it's interesting, like I couldn't work out why people couldn't work that out. I was like, it's like literally step by step. It might be faster, it might be slower depending on the resistance or the progression of the child's, know, whether they...
they put up resistance or not or whether the family put up resistance or not or whatever happens, whatever interrupts the progression. But you know, it can be really fast and it can be really slow, but it all happens within like literally the same steps almost. So talking about the steps of grooming, I know in your book you list four. Is that correct? So it's four steps of grooming.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (10:16)
Yes, so my shorthand for understanding grooming.
which Grooming is the perverse form of courtship. Just like we experience courtship hopefully in our adult lives when we have two consenting adults who are interested in engaging in a romantic relationship, you have a courtship where you want to spend time with that person, you want to show your best side, you you cough a little bit nicer, you put on your best face for that other person. And what I want people to think of when they think of grooming is a perverse form of that courtship.
So grooming can be understood by the four F's, flattery, favoritism, forbidden fruits, and fear.
And in each of those stages, the predator is achieving something for their own goal. Their ultimate goal is to isolate a child so that they can keep them quiet. Because what a lot of people don't understand is that, you know, they'll be confused. I had a father reach out to me recently who said, you know, what was the reason that our daughter didn't come to us and didn't confide in us that this had happened? And I said, predators are
are so good at their jobs. You know, I give them credit, right? I give them credit for isolating a child from the most important people who could protect them from the individual predator themselves. So by showing the child such kindness and warmth and generosity at the beginning, and again, this is often not just to the child themselves, but to me as a mom or to a neighbor or to individuals.
Kristi McVee (11:27)
Mmm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (11:51)
who may work closely with that individual, we see a lot of kindness. So courtship doesn't start off in a cruel or aggressive or mean way. Similarly, grooming always starts off sweet. So for many children and families, they think, wow, this person is really nice. They like us, they like my child, and they're kind to us. And unfortunately, throughout the process of those four
F's.
we move that child further and further away from their safeties, whether they be their peers through favoritism and isolating a child, maybe in a classroom and saying, I've never taught a child like you. You're my pet. You're my special one in my class or on the team or whatever environment that might be. And then during that third stage, when we look at forbidden fruits, this is when a predator is going to provide, illicit
materials for a child, whether that's the opportunity to cuss in their class or the opportunity to skip out early on a class or not abide by the same rules as everyone else. It may also look like vaping or alcohol or drugs or other substances. It's often pornography or opportunities to take nude pictures of children or ask asking them for nude pictures to be supplied. And in this way,
These children are
curious, right? We have to also remember that children are not little robots and they're not small adults. Children are developmentally on a totally different plane than adults are. So here you have these adults who are seeking out vulnerable kids first and foremost. Remember when we talked earlier I said it's a selective process. So here you have somebody who's gone out of their way to hand select which child might be the
Kristi McVee (13:22)
No.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (13:42)
target for me to groom. And then they work themselves through flattery and through kindness and through generosity. And then they dangle opportunities for curious kids who are thinking, maybe I do want to try alcohol. Maybe I do want to look at what that pornography looks like.
What I discovered in my research and from talking to sex offenders is that when they've been able to expose a child to opportunities to break rules that are held by their family, by their religion, or by their culture, they ingratiate shame and guilt into that child.
Kristi McVee (14:18)
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (14:18)
And what's the
purpose in that, your audience might be thinking? The purpose is silence. Because no child wants to disappoint their parents. Even as angry as my teenagers may be at me, they don't want to ever have to show up and say, this is something I've done. This is a rule that I've broken. And it's on us as the adults to pay attention to any adult in our children's lives who may be
exploiting or playing upon their natural curiosities because as children age they are going through phases where they're thinking, maybe I'm not gonna agree with everything mom and dad believe and maybe I do wanna do things differently and maybe I don't agree with everything our culture says or our community says and that's normal but in the hands of a predator it can be exploited.
Kristi McVee (15:07)
Yeah, totally. And everything you're saying is in line with what I saw and what I heard from child victims and from survivors, you know, and that disconnect from their safe adults, you know, the people that are there to protect them, you know, they...
They can also, you you mentioned about grooming the adults, you know, they can also make the adult think that the child, there's something wrong with the child. You know, the child needs extra support from me because I'm, you know, I'm the perfect person to give it. Or they might even, you know, put seeds of doubt in the parent's mind or the caregiver's mind so that if the child does happen to say something or they do notice something, then they're thinking the child's lying. So yeah, they're all similar things that I see or have seen in my experience as well.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (15:51)
think the important part about recognizing that grooming has a natural pattern is that if we know what the pattern looks like, if we know that, for example, in stage two we get a lot of favoritism, we get a lot of isolating a child from their peer group and saying, well, you're so exceptional from the other students or from the other people your age. As a parent, I have an opportunity to speak up, to alert somebody to that. I have an opportunity.
to have a discussion with my child in my own home about what our expectations are because I really support mentorship. I really believe that adults, healthy, caring adults have a great role to play with our children. But one of the hallmarks of predators is that they build a relationship that is
Kristi McVee (16:32)
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (16:39)
That is strange. You know, I sort of liken it to a seesaw. We call them seesaws over here. Maybe you call them cheater totters. Okay.
Kristi McVee (16:44)
Yeah, we do too. Yeah, we do. No, sea-saws, yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (16:48)
Seasaw, okay. So
what I refer to as the Seasaw Principle is this idea that predators are gonna do one of two things in relation during this perverse courtship with a potential target. They're going to elevate the child to adult status. So they're gonna talk about things like their employment woes, they're gonna talk about financial struggles, they're gonna talk about issues or struggles in their marriage or their relationships. They're gonna have adult topic conversations
conversations with children who may feel special as a result of that conversation. They may feel like a confidant. You know, one of the best ways to compliment a child is to say how grown up they are. And predators know this. So one way that predators show a distorted relationship is they treat a child as if they were an adult peer.
Alternatively, they can also relate to a child. So instead of elevating the child to adult status, the predators will relate to the child on a child's level, doing things like playing in the games, whether online or in person, stocking their houses with inappropriate age toys and things that most adults probably wouldn't have. But these are all lures or baits to try to attract the attention.
and participation of other children. They might use the language that the children use and they may attempt to buddy up like instead of a mentorship which rests in the adult stays in the adult position and the child is benefiting from that wisdom from the adult. In that situation when you have that seesaw that's tilted down, we have a situation where the predator is one of the friends, one of the peers of the children.
Kristi McVee (18:13)
Yeah.
Mm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (18:33)
And this is always alarming to me. When I speak to groups, I sometimes talk about hosting a party at our house, right? And if there's one adult that tends to matriculate down to the basement and hang out with the kids rather than being upstairs with all the adults and enjoying adult company, it's not necessarily that I'm calling that person out as a predator. I'm simply curious that their preference would be spending time with the kids.
Kristi McVee (18:36)
you
Yep.
as to why.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (18:59)
rather than the adults exactly, Kristi.
Kristi McVee (19:02)
Yeah, I actually get criticism for that because when I bring that to attention because they're like, but I like spending time with kids, like they're fun and they make me feel young and stuff. I'm like, that's okay, as long as your intent isn't to abuse them. And you stick to your role as a safe adult and a healthy, safe person in their life. If you try and become their best friend and like you just said, use children
as your confidence and and you know have an inappropriate relationship with them through you know giving them more information than they should have putting your adult woes on your on a child and some and sadly some adults think that it's okay to offload onto children because they might not feel so even that to me if they might not have that intention of of abusing a child but that is in form not a child's problem and and they're not children's go and get a therapist go and talk to
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (19:58)
That's
Kristi McVee (19:58)
an adult. So yeah, I do get criticism
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (19:58)
right. That's right.
Kristi McVee (20:01)
about calling this stuff out and I just ignore it because I'm like, I know what I know because I've seen it. So yeah, it's interesting.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (20:08)
And I've also,
yeah, and I've also noticed too that sometimes the biggest...
criticisms come from people who don't want anyone to question hanging out closely with the children or hosting lots of middle school boys over at their house with no supervision, right? So I'm absolutely in support and in favor of adults using their position for the benefit of children. However, one of the things that's remarkable about predators is that predators seek to
Kristi McVee (20:24)
Well, yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (20:38)
isolate their targets. So you cannot isolate someone if you're meeting in public spaces, you're meeting with possibly the supervision or the earshot of other adults. You're not trying to remove the child from the normal spaces and environment.
When I speak to groups and talk about this concept, I say that predators run on gas, Grooming, Access, and Space. And those are the three ingredients that you need in order to, that predators need in order to be successful in...
Kristi McVee (21:02)
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (21:12)
doing the devastating child sexual abuse. So one of the things I think is important is not only recognizing what grooming looks like, but then also trying to sort out as a parent, I have to do this all the time, right? With five kids and having them in different places and schools and activities.
Who has access to my children, whether through familial relationships, through activities or schools that my husband and I might pick for them? You know, these aren't necessarily choices that children get to make. So we're having to look for signs of grooming. We're looking at who's got access to our children and then what available spaces are there for potential isolation. And when we think about space, we need to think about, you
Kristi McVee (21:42)
Mm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (21:56)
Homes are the highest risk environment that a child will ever spend time in. That's the house where the child lives or the house where the predator lives. So I'm always very keen in conversations to say, we must be alert, not only to schooling environments and things like that, but who are we letting into our homes? And even if relationships begin at school, maybe through a predatory teacher or through a predatory co-
the relationship often takes its most egregious steps in home environments or off-campus environments or in a car in the parking lot. And sometimes parents miss that if we just backed up and recognized, well, where's the gas? Where's the access? Where's the space? And if we ever recognize grooming, we have to think, well,
Kristi McVee (22:28)
Yes.
Yep.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (22:45)
Is it interruptible? What can I do to interrupt this? And then are there available spaces and access roles that can be cut off or limited?
Kristi McVee (22:53)
Yeah, I get a lot of questions around this about, you know, I have this feeling like I've noticed some red flags. You said these red flags, Kristi, and I've noticed them in a family member. And what do I do? And I'm like, well, you have to limit the access to your children. I mean, if you haven't observed something and no one has disclosed anything, well, it's just a feeling you have and something you've noticed. So it's not something you can, yes, you can call out, hey,
You can say something to that person and say, hey, it's inappropriate to have kids in a room with a closed door, for instance. So please, like, don't take my children into the bedroom or don't take children into the bedroom. You could say that if you felt confident to say that, and I would because that's who I am. But as someone who doesn't...
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (23:35)
I have no doubt.
Kristi McVee (23:36)
I have done it. But if you're not confident, say, you know, all you can do is protect the children that you have access to. so if you're in a, say for instance, it's a family party and this person is hanging around the kids, well, you're gonna be...
pretty much their shadow and making sure that they don't have access to those children. all you have is a gut feeling. So listen to that gut feeling and do what you can do. Step in where you can step in. Because really it comes down to preventing and reducing the potential harm that this person can do to the children in your life.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (24:06)
Yeah, and I equate it to this is who we are. This is not about who you are as a person. This is not about who, you know.
about anything other than who we are as a family. I'll give you an example. So in our family with five kids, know, it's, meal time is always crazy, as you can imagine. And one of our rules is that you wash your hands before you come to the table. Not because, you know, I necessarily know their hands are dirty. I can probably assume that they're dirty, but because that's our house rule. So if we have, you know, a neighbor or a child's friend come and join us.
Kristi McVee (24:26)
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (24:43)
The protocol is the protocol. And I'm not highlighting that one child to go wash their hands because our rule at our house is everybody washes their hands before we come to the table. So when I talk to parents who feel shy or feel concerned about singling somebody out, I really encourage them to think about what are your family protocols? What are your family safety systems? Just like you have a safety system with, you know, maybe a safety word on a text or over
Kristi McVee (24:48)
Thank
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (25:11)
phone or you have systems in place for helmets and seat belts and going to the doctor or going to the dentist or you know simple hygiene practices. Come up with some safety measures, safety protocols that you do every time. Like we don't allow you know bedtime rituals or private spaces to be to become public spaces no matter who's in town, no matter what's going on. That is something
that is a protocol of our family and for families to feel like they get to write that script. They don't have to just do something because what's the way it's always been done or it's the way my new boyfriend wants things done or you know that's that's something that my parents guilt-trip me into doing when they're in town. know none of that matters. We know that childhood only comes once and we have a very important responsibility to preserve and protect the
Kristi McVee (25:45)
Yeah.
Yes.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (26:06)
precious childhood while we have it. And we need to partner with our children and we also need to partner with other adults. We need to build communities and villages that say, yeah, this isn't going to happen on our watch. We are attentive and attuned. We're going to show up to things. When we show up to things like practices or events, we're going to be looking up. We're not going to be sitting there scrolling on our phones and distracted. We're going to be paying attention to what the interaction
Kristi McVee (26:19)
Mmm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (26:35)
is between the adults and the children. And I also want to point out that this is a risk factor that we're looking at a growing risk of adults or not just adults, but also older kids who are exposed to far worse material who are acting out sexual abuse on younger children. So when I'm at events for my own children, I'm not just paying attention to the adults who are on the scene.
Kristi McVee (26:48)
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (27:02)
I'm also paying attention to what's the dynamic going on with maybe older kids and younger kids. And I'm often suspicious of maybe a really older child who wants to spend time with a very...
Kristi McVee (27:14)
Little. Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (27:14)
young child or a
very little child. Yeah, and some parents think, well that's just sweet and I would think, well that's a potential risk factor and we must do a better job of educating parents who are on the very front lines of protecting the children that we all care about and want to protect so much.
Kristi McVee (27:21)
I know. Yeah.
Yeah, and in my book I talk about peer-based abuse or child-on-child abuse or we call it harmful sexualised behaviours in Australia if it's children under the age of 18 and you're right, when it comes to older children and younger children there's that power imbalance and so a child, a young person or a teenager who's hanging out with little children, well that should be done out in the open in public spaces where there's other adults, where there's people who can obviously
observe but also intervene and help right if it's done behind a closed door in a in a space where people can't see then that's a massive red flag of and it might not be intentional by that young person it could be just trying to provide you know whatever experience for those kids but we need to be mindful hey it's you know we we need to be out in public and you also pointed out in your home about that family protocol and i wanted to just touch back like touch back on that because i do
get a lot of parents say to me.
I don't know how to talk to my parents about this. I don't know how to talk to my partner about this. My partner doesn't think it's as important as I do. How do I set up boundaries because my parents don't listen to me or my in-laws don't listen to me. And I love how you said, you know, it's our family rule or our family protocol. This is what we do in our family. Because if you make that as something that you do in your family, then, you know, they can
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (28:39)
Right.
Kristi McVee (29:02)
argue it if they want but no this is our family rule and it's not about you as the parent going no I don't want this to happen even it might be you who instigates or starts that family protocol but it's about you as a family making a joint decision a team decision to be safe and yeah I just have you got any other hints or tips or or anything for families because a lot of parents are struggling with how to talk to their partners their parents and other people about this because
I know that you say that it's about 93 % of all child sexual abuse is someone known to the child in an
in your book and in your research, it's the same in Australia. And we have really recent statistics that say one in three girls and one in five boys will be sexually abused before they reach 18. That's the current statistics in Australia, which means that, you know, and 93, over 90 % of it will be by someone known to the child. It's not that person in that, at the park that we need to worry about. Although, yes, we need to always have been mindful of strangers, but some strangers are safe and our kids might need to go to a stranger's.
So we need to juggle those, juggle our fears and be a bit more realistic really.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (30:09)
Yeah, I think one of the things that I would start with is...
We're now having more conversations. know, 20 years ago, know, this conversation was not happening. There were not platforms where people could get educated and learn about not only what the research is, but what parents can do. There are so many nonprofits with checklists and guidelines, and there are so many more resources out there. Your book is available to people. There are incredible resources that are out in the world. I think our first step is
Kristi McVee (30:35)
Yours?
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (30:40)
to call the meeting to order, right? We know that if it's not happening to our child, it's likely happening to some child. And it might be a child who comes up against our child. So what I like to tell people is about a statistic that was found here in the United States that 60 % of the time when children do tell about child sexual abuse, do you know who they tell? They tell a friend.
Kristi McVee (30:42)
Mmm.
Mm.
They're Those
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (31:06)
Yes!
Kristi McVee (31:07)
poor babies.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (31:07)
They tell a friend. So for
my children, not only am I very vocal about the risks of child sexual abuse and grooming and things like that ad nauseum, but we also talk about the fact that there is a difference between privacy, secrecy, and surprise. And oftentimes, children might ask them to keep a secret or I want to tell you a secret because my child may find themselves sitting on a bus or
Kristi McVee (31:14)
you
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (31:35)
sitting next to someone at the playground or somebody at school who says, I really don't want to go home today because my stepbrother comes into my bedroom at night time and it scares me. And my children know,
Kristi McVee (31:39)
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (31:47)
This is something that I have to tell my teacher. I have to tell somebody. I have to tell my mom. I have to tell my dad. I have to tell a caring adult. And if we don't have that conversation in our own homes first, you know, I think there's so much pressure on schools, at least here in the States, to be everything to every child. And that's an incredible pressure. And what I'd like to do is to...
Kristi McVee (32:03)
Yeah, same. Yep.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (32:09)
to give back a little bit of the power to parents and say, start the conversation, call the meeting to order. Not in a scary, sad way, but it's similar to that exercise of maybe making a family crest or coming up with some family mantras. We have a family song, for example. So it doesn't have to be something that's scary and dark. It can also be, we want a safety protocol because we want
adventure and we want fun and laughter and joy and we want it done in a way that everybody can enjoy themselves. So engaging the children, engaging the parents, the in-laws, you know other family members and bring to light you know a show like yours has incredible information to give to people. So even if you sent it out and said hey you know what do you guys think about maybe having a supper dinner and afterwards we
and get some big butcher paper or like that enormous, you know, paper that goes on and on forever. And everybody can carve out like, what do you think would be really important to have in our family protocol? Well, I don't want to go to bed without the hall lights on. You know, it could be little things, but engaging the children and getting kids involved and then getting those people, especially those people who often are most obstinate, right? Those people who say, well, I want to do with the grandkids, whatever I want to do with them. Actually, I have found
Kristi McVee (33:05)
No.
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (33:30)
that the grandparents are often the ones who learn about my book and then they're the ones who are educating their own children and saying, really we need to be upping our game with protection and awareness about this issue. So I would say our first step is let's call the meeting to order. Let's have a conversation. Let's make it fun. Let's encourage the children to be there and then other safe adults because guess what? I'm not always available to my own children.
Kristi McVee (33:43)
Hmm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (33:58)
but I certainly want them to have a handful of people who at a given notice, whether it's at school, whether it's at sports, whether it's at any sort of activity or when they're with other family members, that they know, is my safe family member. And in our household, a secondary policy or a secondary sort of tip would be we have an open-ended ability to talk about anything, no matter who's involved, no matter.
you know, what title that person holds no matter what role they hold and that's a safety for children. So not having a category of people who, know, well we can never say anything about a priest or we can never say anything about our neighbor or we can never say anything about grandpa because what you already know too well, Kristi, is oftentimes families are the keepers of these darkest secrets and they sometimes have supported predators to remain in the fold instead of
Kristi McVee (34:28)
Yep.
you
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (34:53)
of calling in authorities, calling in the support for children and getting some legal consequences. So We cannot always rely on extended family to do the right thing, but every single adult has the ability to interrupt the grooming process because after today they know what the grooming process looks like. It looks sweet at the start. It looks like pulling a child further and further away from
Kristi McVee (35:00)
Yeah.
Yes.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (35:20)
their normal activities, their peers. It looks like giving them opportunities to break rules, to change who they are in order to confirm and can get closer with that other individual, therefore creating more and more space with us when we should really be the cornerstone for that child. I had a really interesting class recently and had the opportunity to talk about a system that one of my children and I have because this child is not
Kristi McVee (35:35)
Hmm.
you
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (35:47)
a chatterer, you know, they would not come to me. They would not come to me and say, Mom, we need to sit down and chat. But they love to write. So I bought a journal and every few, you know, maybe it's every few days. Sometimes it's, you know, only once a month. But if something comes up in her life, she will write down what's happening and she'll leave it for me. And I will have an opportunity to read through what's happening and then to write a response and return it to her.
Kristi McVee (35:49)
Hahaha
Okay.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (36:15)
So I want parents to get a little bit creative. Think about sometimes having direct conversation with a child. If you've ever done that, it's sort of like having a flashlight in the woods late at night and assuming you're gonna get from point A to point B to point C. It doesn't work like that, as you and I both know. So allowing your children multiple opportunities, multiple methods to communicate with you. And too often, especially in 2025, we are
Kristi McVee (36:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (36:43)
pulled in multiple directions, we have screens on, we have other voices, we have loud noises happening, and to convey to our children, are the most important thing is so important because I can assure you that predators are very good at letting children know, letting their targets know that they are special to them. And at no point do I want that space to be in my child's life for a potential predator to step in and say,
Kristi McVee (37:03)
you
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (37:10)
nobody cares about you but I care about you. Nobody loves you but I love you. Nobody's listening to you but I'm listening to you. That's our job and it's a really wonderful job to have.
Kristi McVee (37:21)
Yeah, I totally agree. And it's not just, I think...
Predators definitely do that and they do it really well because that is their whole purpose. They spend so much energy time. That's their whole focus is on finding that victim, finding that target and children are so vulnerable to it. So as their parents or their caregivers or someone who cares for a child, whether you're a grandparent or an auntie or uncle or someone, you know, it is all of our responsibility to keep our kids safe and to call out inappropriate behaviour and to or to interrupt and
intercept that behaviour so that it can't continue because it might not be you have to get policing because it might not, nothing might have happened yet but at least your family. You focus on your family, you educate your family and then it's a ripple effect. Your children will educate their friends, they will talk with their friends. Your families might talk with their greater family or their friends and so the thing that I have realised is that every conversation is changing this for the better.
I just think that if we keep having these conversations, like you said, you know, get everyone involved. And some of the things that I've said to my parents and the people around me and also I've shared with others is that when I start that conversation with maybe a grandparent or a family member that's a bit like anti, like they're not quite sure why, you know, I know what I know, there's no disputing it, right? But I would say something like, I know you love XYZ so much and you would hate for this to happen to
them. So I need your help in keeping them safe and this is how we can do it. I'm sure you don't want anything to happen. So I'm almost going, it's a bit of a guilt trip but at the same time it's reminding them of the extreme importance of what we're doing and putting it back on them to take some responsibility for that.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (39:05)
and that we want them to be partnering with us, that the antagonism is not going to result in the positive outcome. But we all have a shared love for this child. And what we find and what we know is that communities, families who talk about child sexual abuse have lower instances of child sexual abuse. And actually, one of the reasons I think that the rate of child on child abuse is so reported is that
Kristi McVee (39:25)
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (39:32)
we actually have an easier time reporting maybe an older adolescent abusing a smaller child. But when it comes to an adult acting out against a child, there's so much collateral damage for the other adults around them, whether it be through relationships, through employment, through finances, any sort of throwback, so many things. So I think it's critical that we all
Kristi McVee (39:35)
Mm.
Yeah.
so many things.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (39:58)
recognize that the same predators are going out and repeatedly finding and selecting targets. And that shouldn't scare us, it should actually make us remember that most people are not predators. Most people do not want to molest children. Most people, even people who have their own children, most people don't want to spend all their time with children. They want that break. So it's really important to recognize that
Kristi McVee (40:05)
Mm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (40:24)
You're only looking out for a few things. You're looking out for individuals who go above and beyond and flattering your family and being so generous with their time with giving your children, whether it's money, food, gifts, special privileges, and then recognizing any sort of steps towards those forbidden fruits and allowing your relationship with your child to remain strong so that if at any time
they experience that and somebody says, well, I want to take pictures of you in your swim swimming costume or your cheerleading outfit that they know you're coming right to me. Not because anything negative is going to happen to that person necessarily, but.
Kristi McVee (41:02)
Mm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (41:06)
we have that open dialogue and relationship and we have the added benefit of being able to pay attention to our children because most of the time we're living in the house with them. So we're getting information points from showing up to events, looking and paying attention to the environment, and then also being able to look at our own children and sorting out, is this atypical behavior or is this typical behavior for my child? What might have happened? And if something is off or atypical,
Kristi McVee (41:30)
Mm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (41:34)
then using that relationship that's already been so well established to have those sorts of discussions is so critical.
Kristi McVee (41:41)
Yeah, I just wanted to also like point out that, you know, offenders if they're especially if they're within the family intra-familial and they might, you know, there might be one child in that family and that's the child that might be a little bit more shy or a bit anxious or has those vulnerabilities that you pointed out earlier. You know, it might not be every child in the family that's being groomed and abused. It could be just one child in the family or it could be just, you know, so
when they do target children, it's the child that is least likely to speak up. It's the child that they can get closest to without other people seeing that or without other people working out what they're doing. we need to keep an eye out because they're segregating, they're pulling apart that family and they're picking one child or maybe two children or it could be but.
I find that generally it's the outspoken children, like I've had some victim survivors or families come to me and they're like, no one could abuse me because I was so loud, but they picked on my brother or my sister. And so, you know, that's what happened because they saw that I was not easily manipulated, but my sister was or my brother was. yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (42:49)
think this is such a great point, Kristi, because when I was thinking about my book and the title and everything, I titled my book after the game Duck Duck Goose, which I don't know if it's as popular over in Australia, but it's hugely popular here in the States for people aged two to seven, two to eight. But it's the game in which you hand select.
Kristi McVee (42:59)
Yeah. It's a great game. Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (43:13)
which person is going to get up and try to run around after you. And I think that...
Imagery was so important for me when I was thinking about what what could convey the selective nature of Predation because you're absolutely right. Not all children are groomed and there are ways that we can prepare our children to be worse prey if you will and we can do that by things like Reminding children what privacy secrecy and surprises are we can remind them that they are full
loved and cared about at home and no one can ever take or take away or diminish that in any way no matter what they say, no matter what they're told by that person. So putting a little bit of belief in the child that you possess all the things you need to, you don't need to rely on someone else and I think this is where it gets really complicated, right Kristi? Because children are not full of agency. They are dependent. They rely
Kristi McVee (44:08)
Yeah.
No.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (44:14)
on, well, you know, what sort of living situation am I in? Well, that's really up to my parents, my caregivers, you know, what the financial situation is. That's not really up to me. That's up to someone else. So predators are putting themselves in positions where they are eligible to find vulnerable targets. And what we can do as a society is we can look at child sexual abuse as a public health issue. Just like we would look at any other public health issue, we would
Kristi McVee (44:22)
Exactly.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (44:42)
say it doesn't matter what your specific situation is. We know that for the well-being of our culture, of our people, of our country, we must protect children from child sexual abuse. The expense, the long-term effects, the amount of struggle and challenge, especially when we look at the limits on mental health care and good mental health care. You know, this is often something, I met a woman at a conference recently
Kristi McVee (44:57)
Yes, 100%.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (45:10)
and she told me, you know, I've been in therapy for 15 years and I've never told anyone what I just told you about my history as a child. And if that's one person, imagine how many adult survivors are walking around saying, nobody will listen to me, nobody will believe me, even if they're receiving mental health support for potentially other unrelated issues.
Kristi McVee (45:16)
.
Thanks
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (45:35)
This is a preventable problem and we've just done such a poor job. We need to move by 180 degrees and we need to inform people we can prevent child sexual abuse. It is recognizable when you know what to see and you have the power to make enormous change. I also think it's really important to remind children when I talk to older kids that children can make reports.
Kristi McVee (45:43)
Hmm
Yes.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (46:02)
when
we talk about that idea of agency and children not having agency, know, now with kids having phones and being able to record things and, you know, obviously that's a conversation for another day entirely with the risk factors of kids being online and online predation and grooming. But one of the things that children are feeling now with the access they have through having devices is they can call Child Protective Services.
Kristi McVee (46:07)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Hmm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (46:30)
You don't necessarily need to be an adult to make that report. And when I speak to kids and they hear that, think...
I can do that. You mean I'm old enough and I remind them that at any time they can call the police, they can call Child Protective Services and we are making such positive change just from having this conversation. Somebody somewhere is going to hear what you're saying, is going to hear what I'm saying and they're going to look at a situation a little bit differently and I want people to be mandated observers. I want them to be paying attention to
Kristi McVee (46:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (47:05)
patterns of behavior because predators are habitual. They are serial in nature and they will attempt things and sometimes their attempts will fail but they will pick a different target and they will start again. So that's a critical message that you are helping spread through your show and through your audience that one conversation.
Kristi McVee (47:18)
Yep.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (47:26)
can enlighten a child or a parent's life to be capable of having the courage to stand up to something and prevent it.
Kristi McVee (47:33)
Yeah.
And like you said, you've had people come to you and said, I actually observed something and I intervened. And that's probably, you know.
prevented the abuse of a child, protected a child. And I get the same conversations, the same messages through my Instagram and wherever, same emails. I listened to your book, I read your blog post, I did this and I did something and it actually, I think it actually protected this child or my child or whoever's child. So we are making changes, we are protecting kids, we're making it more difficult and that's what we can do. That's what we can do as parents and that's what we can
can
do as a community, as a society. So, Anna, thank you so, so much for sharing your amazing wisdom. It's so lovely to speak to someone who's on the same wavelength and thought process as I am. I didn't realize what I was observing or witnessing and hearing until I had...
had that lens and that's why I wrote my book, that's why you've written your book. So it's so amazing. So where can people find you, where can they follow you and where can they get your book etc?
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (48:40)
Sure, the name of the book is Duck Duck Groom, Understanding How a Child Becomes a Target. It's available on Amazon. I also published a workbook for adult survivors of grooming and child sex abuse in the fall this year. That's called Duck Duck Groom, a guided journal that's also on Amazon. And you can search me up online, annasenota.com.
Kristi McVee (49:01)
Yeah and I really highly recommend everyone to go and have a look and I want to get a copy of the Duck Duck Groom journal because I think I would love to touch base on you know how that could help survivors. I have a lot of survivors who follow me and I think that they you know the grooming
Grooming leaves such a massive impact on a victim or survivor. It's what actually does a lot of damage down the track because, and we didn't touch on this and I'll just say this quickly, that the grooming process, especially if it's someone's close to the child, because the child's, as a child you might love that person but they might be harming you and hurting you and it can leave such a massive black.
cloud over what's happened because you know the abuse is abuse and it shouldn't have happened but you love that person or that person has groomed you to for whatever reason to do whatever they've done and so it can leave a message and I'm so grateful and glad that you have a journal for that because I've got a lot of people who have said to me I don't know how to get past the grooming so that's amazing.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (50:01)
Yeah, the catalyst for the journal was really coming in contact with so many adults who said, I'm gonna use the book for my parenting and how I raise my kids, but what do I do about my survivor story and my survivor path? You know, was I groomed? Did this happen? And I think...
Kristi McVee (50:14)
Hmm.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (50:20)
Well, how come there's nothing out there? you know, when you see a gap, you try to fix it because, you know, it's what we do. So I'm just blessed to be with you today and to have the opportunity to share with your audience that they have more power and more ability and more courage than they sometimes give themselves credit for and that we can address this just like a public health issue. We can get the word out there. We can talk to new
Kristi McVee (50:22)
So powerful.
You feel it? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (50:47)
parents. We can talk to young mothers and young dads so that this new generation of children never has to go back into the dark ages of where generations of families have come from and we can set forth on an entirely new path.
Kristi McVee (51:01)
Yeah.
You're inspirational. Thank you so much, Anna. It's been a great conversation. I'm sure everyone listening will get so much out of this.
Anna Sonoda, LCSW (51:10)
I loved it. Thank you so much, Kristi, for having me. It was such a pleasure.
Kristi McVee (51:13)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or cape-au where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com.
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
