Danielle Cheeseman (00:00)
I was absolutely terrified of becoming a mum, absolutely petrified. I thought how am I supposed to stop my children from experiencing what I've experienced. I was particularly scared, I know looking back
The fear was coming from my own experience, but I was particularly worried about having a girl, so I was really hopeful for boys, which I have two boys, but it very quickly became apparent that that didn't really matter and I think the risk was still just as significant.
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:29)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:26)
Hello and welcome back to Conversations with Kristi, a podcast all about child abuse prevention and education for parents and carers, just so that we can talk about the real topics that we need to talk about. I'm with the amazing Danielle Cheeseman who contacted me after I sent out a, who wants to be on my podcast? And Danielle has a story which I think every parent can appreciate and will get a lot from.
Danielle Cheeseman (01:46)
you
Kristi McVee (01:52)
always with these podcasts, just be mindful when listening that obviously we're talking about topics that you know, that can be triggering. So there is a content warning that we'll be talking about child sexual abuse with all of my podcasts. That's pretty much the theme here. So just be mindful if, you know, if this podcast is triggering, there'll be some support services at the end of this. So Danielle,
I'm really grateful for you for just reaching out because when I read your application about coming onto the podcast and I was like, wow, this is something we haven't talked about in this podcast yet is that, and I don't want to ruin it. So I'm going to get you to explain. I could just blurt it all out there, but I'm going to get you to explain exactly, you know.
Danielle Cheeseman (02:28)
Yeah
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (02:35)
why you wanted to share your story for one and the fact that you have such an interesting story and I'll get you to share that.
Danielle Cheeseman (02:45)
Yeah sure so I guess the the first part to
to add is that I myself was a victim of child sexual abuse from a very young age until roughly around 12 when I finally come forward with that. I was fortunate enough to get quite a good support network around me, therapy, the things I need to be able to process and move through that. Not that it doesn't still give me challenges day to day, but I would consider myself fairly far along
my sort of healing process and acceptance of what has happened. So then fast forward I guess to becoming a parent. I was absolutely terrified of becoming a mum, absolutely petrified. I thought how am I supposed to stop my children from experiencing what I've experienced. I was particularly scared, I know looking back
that actually this is probably not. The fear was coming from my own experience, but I was particularly worried about having a girl, so I was really hopeful for boys, which I have two boys, but it very quickly became apparent that that didn't really matter and I think the risk was still just as significant. So I, yeah, I guess.
had to figure out how I was going to manage that as a parent with other family members, with sleepovers, with school, with even just babysitting in general. I tended to not let my kids be babysat. I don't think I ever had them babysat by a stranger other than very immediate family and even then it was quite limited. I just didn't feel like I was willing to trust.
anyone or anyone that may be able to access them, you know, if they were visitors, etc. That really became evident for me when I had a situation not so long ago where a close, someone know closely to me was charged with child sexual abuse offences. And I...
Kristi McVee (04:26)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Cheeseman (04:41)
had put in a lot of protective measures to keep my kids safe because I had some concerns around their behaviour but also historical behaviours as well that led me to think I'd rather just better be safe than sorry I suppose. So when this then did come to light
Kristi McVee (04:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Danielle Cheeseman (04:59)
It was a moment of, I mean it was obviously devastating for everybody but it was a moment of me going, I'm not crazy, I'm so glad that I did what I did. My children, very fortunately, were not harmed throughout this process and I can live in peace now knowing that I wasn't being over the top, I suppose, because that's how I felt quite a lot of the time.
Kristi McVee (05:06)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (05:21)
Yeah so it's been an interesting last 12 months I would say.
Kristi McVee (05:25)
Yeah. Yeah, so that's quite recent then if that's, you know, like the fact that this person who was obviously close to your family and, you know, involved with your family in some way, shape or form, you know, if it's only been 12 months, you've been processing this, that's quite close and recent, whereas a lot of people, you know, I speak to...
Danielle Cheeseman (05:31)
Mm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (05:47)
Yes, their personal history is like years before, also their current, you know, what they know has happened years before as well. So yeah, that's crazy. And you pointed out there that, you know, it brought up a lot of things like becoming a parent was like terrifying because you're thinking, how do I protect my kids when I was not protected as a child for whatever reason? And also, you you know what the risks are. Like, you know that this happens to and can happen to anyone.
Danielle Cheeseman (05:55)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (06:15)
So, you know, it can be quite terrifying. Just going back to, you know, you as a child with regards to your own abuse and please just only talk about what you feel comfortable talking about. You know, was this someone close to your family, the person who abused you?
Danielle Cheeseman (06:30)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, so it was actually apparent in my situation So I guess as close as they could possibly get in that scenario. Yeah. Yep Mmm
Kristi McVee (06:38)
that they can get, Yeah, right. And so,
you know, that's a really difficult situation to be in because this is someone who you're meant to be able to trust, you're meant to be able to feel safe with. then that, and it's sad, you know, like I, as a detective and as a child interviewer, you know, I was investigating the cases much like yours, I'd imagine. And, you know, that...
Danielle Cheeseman (06:53)
Yep.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (07:05)
When it's someone that close to you, you you love them still even though that they've been hurting you and harming you and doing what they're doing. You still love them. And it's not until you become an adult that you go, wow, that was like, it's, you know, was that your experience?
Danielle Cheeseman (07:20)
It was initially throughout, I guess, before I actually came forward. Once I came forward, I feel like I was 12 at that point. I had a little bit more maturity about me. I understood that it was wrong. my, although part of the experience reporting wasn't necessarily a positive one, the supports that I did receive after were quite...
Kristi McVee (07:38)
Mm.
Danielle Cheeseman (07:42)
I would say, what would be the word, supportive and reinforcing that this is not normal behaviour, this is not a healthy relationship. I didn't hang on to that relationship too much, which...
Kristi McVee (07:57)
That's good.
Danielle Cheeseman (07:59)
is helpful. I was able to make a bit of a disconnect to be able to move on. But certainly over the years while it was actually happening, I was so conflicted because I'd be telling my other family member that I didn't want to go there over the weekend and I just didn't like it and you he favours the boys. That was all of my excuses at the time.
Kristi McVee (08:00)
Yeah.
Mm.
Danielle Cheeseman (08:23)
And didn't want to go there. I didn't want to be around him or be with him as I was older. But prior to that, I just thought it was a normal thing. It was like, you know, I'm your dad. This is, I love you. This is, this is okay. I'm allowed to do this, that kind of attitude. So yeah, it was, it was an interesting one. And I still do occasionally reflect back and I, this is as morbid as this sounds, you know, we've,
Kristi McVee (08:27)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (08:47)
gone through the what if he was to die situation, how would you feel? And I'm like, relief. But would I? Because there was something I missed. I missed out on so much because of what he did. So I've been grieving that, not him necessarily, but what I didn't get to experience.
Kristi McVee (08:50)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yes.
Yeah, the loss of a safe parent, the loss of a relationship with a healthy relationship with your parent. Yeah, I can relate to that totally. And you're right, like, you were trying to tell people around you with the fact that you didn't wanna go there, that something was happening because you didn't have the confidence to say something was happening until you obviously got to a point that you said something, you know, and that's something that I saw a lot of in...
Danielle Cheeseman (09:05)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (09:26)
in interviewing kids, but also talking to adults after the fact, after they've realised their children are being abused, if they're like, I just didn't realise that this is why they didn't want to go there, or I didn't know, I couldn't work it out. you know, behaviour is a form of language. I've said this time and time again. So, you know, you're trying to tell people with your behaviour, I'd imagine.
Danielle Cheeseman (09:36)
Yeah.
Yeah and I was probably very much of a quiet, people pleasing type of child. So I was not someone that was really loud or getting myself into too much trouble till later. But over that period. So I would probably be a little bit more withdrawn. If you know, in hindsight.
Kristi McVee (09:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (10:09)
And interestingly as well, I actually did disclose that this was happening to somebody before it actually came out. And I didn't remember this until only a few years ago, but I had discussed it with my nana, which is the perpetrator's mother. And at the time she didn't know what to do with it. She was, I guess she had her own experiences from childhood and her automatic response was, need to go and tell.
someone else like I don't know what to do with this information and I don't don't recall how long it was it may have been a year or so before I actually did tell somebody that was able to then immediately put it into action but that was
Kristi McVee (10:45)
Wow, okay.
Danielle Cheeseman (10:47)
Yeah, that was a really tough moment. think where I was like if I tell people they're not going to believe me or not, not you know Or they love this person. They're not going to want to hurt them So I think that that wasn't very helpful And I understand where it come from from her perspective and her generation. It's a very different time. So I have some Some I guess empathy for that situation but I also have a lot of anger because I'm like you could have actually
Kristi McVee (10:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (11:13)
stop this sooner? Like why didn't you tell somebody or you know didn't have to go to the police you could have gone to my other family member and let them know so they could action it. So that's been yeah that was challenging I think especially when she confronted that with me later on in life as an adult. Yeah and then it come flooding back and I was like
Kristi McVee (11:20)
Hmm.
Yeah.
when she told you that, yeah, I knew about it.
Danielle Cheeseman (11:34)
wow, I remember this now. Like I had just, I'd obviously blocked it out. So yeah, that was, that was challenging.
Kristi McVee (11:36)
Yeah. Yep, yep.
And you obviously felt safe to go to her and talk to her about it because maybe there was this connection there that, but she actually damaged that connection with you by not doing anything and not confronting or not sharing it with your other parent and stuff like that. So that's really interesting. And that's what I have heard a lot of in the past. If you hadn't have had the...
Danielle Cheeseman (11:50)
Yeah, absolutely.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (12:04)
if you hadn't have felt safe a year later to disclose to someone else, then it could have went on for much longer. It's only through the fact that you had to go and speak up again. And he's like, I don't know if you've ever heard me talk about this, but one in three adults believe children, only one in three adults believe children when they disclose child sexual abuse to them. when we've got only, a child has to go and speak to at least three adults before someone will listen to them. Hopefully they get it on the work first go.
Danielle Cheeseman (12:10)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (12:33)
But if they don't, that could, like in your case, could make it last longer than it needs to go on for. you know, yeah, it just baffles my mind. But like you said, you know, that empathy you feel for your grandparent is because they didn't talk about it. They didn't have, like, no one said, this is what we do. This is how we fix this. This is how we get help. And also, I think, you know, it was her child. So she was probably feeling like she had some sort of
Danielle Cheeseman (12:49)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (13:00)
responsibility there too.
Danielle Cheeseman (13:02)
Yeah, and she, you know, we've spoken about it and she told me there's, there was a lot of guilt for so many reasons for not responding the way she should have, for not, she believed, she, she believed me. I will say that, but she didn't know how to respond. Yeah. So yeah, it was, yeah, an interesting situation. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:13)
Yeah, right. That's good.
Yes.
I'd imagine there's a lot of people out there. Yeah, it is very
interesting. I'd imagine there's a lot of people out there that wish they had have done something or have felt powerless to try and to help and to do anything, especially in these intra-familial situations. It's someone close to the family. They might be the caregiver or they might be the, they might be the financial, like they financially support everyone. And if you,
Danielle Cheeseman (13:39)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:49)
report it that that financial support is taken away that person's support is taken away. I know that that has been the case in some of the cases I've dealt with you know that it's the it's the father and the father is the main that he makes all the money he goes to work you know and he's the one earning and and then everyone's out of a home and everyone's you know so there is so many complexities to this but at the end of the day your safety was more important.
Danielle Cheeseman (13:54)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, and my situation, my parents were separated and I wasn't with my birth mother, I was with my stepmother so she'd married my father and they'd been separated and so I think it was probably easier for her to accept in that situation. I don't know how it would have looked if they were still together, maybe it would have been different.
but yeah so I do often wonder how that might have looked different if they were still in a relationship.
Kristi McVee (14:36)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, right. And so with this, with the times that you would go and see your dad, was that like weekend visits and stuff like that?
Danielle Cheeseman (14:49)
Yeah, yeah, so weekend visits.
Kristi McVee (14:51)
And so your stepmom was your primary carer outside of your dad? Is that right? Okay, yeah, so pretty interesting situation, hey.
Danielle Cheeseman (14:56)
Yes, yeah, so I stayed with her when they separated.
Yeah, that's not even the best part. Because I did last year have a DNA discovery where it determined that the person I thought was my dad actually isn't my biological dad. So that's a whole other situation. So yeah.
Kristi McVee (15:07)
What?
Whoa, blown it out of the water.
Danielle Cheeseman (15:20)
So that person who is my perpetrator, who I believe to be my father, is actually not my biological dad, which I only discovered last year. And that, I will say, has been incredibly healing, far more than I had ever imagined.
Kristi McVee (15:30)
I bet. then you can,
cause then now you're like, well, he wasn't my dad. I'd imagine there's so many complexities and levels to this, but.
Danielle Cheeseman (15:39)
So many, so
many, yeah so.
Kristi McVee (15:41)
So the support you got outside
of that, so when you did finally disclose to your stepmother and she obviously reported it and stuff like that and you didn't have to go back. So what kind of support did you get after that and what helped you the most?
Danielle Cheeseman (15:54)
Hmm. I mean the first like the first step once I I told my stepmom what had happened Her immediate thought was to call the police. That's what she did straight away which was In my opinion probably the best option to have gone with she called Down as well
that the rest of it all happened very quickly where we had to do physical examinations with specialist doctors.
interviews with the police and all of those things as well, which was no fun whatsoever. And it is, yeah, that in itself is a trauma going through that experience, especially when your story, when you're the only person speaking against one person, there's not really any physical evidence or corroborating stories to help. So I
Kristi McVee (16:26)
No, no, definitely not.
Yeah. Yep.
Danielle Cheeseman (16:46)
Following that though, I had therapy. So I did a lot of CBT. I did some group stuff. I wasn't really a fan of that, but a lot of one-to-one. So I'd go to counseling sessions on a sort of weekly and fortnightly basis for a number of years, probably. Just help sort of reframe some of my thinking around what's happened and helping with accepting and normalizing, you know, my feelings and thoughts after the fact as well.
Kristi McVee (17:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (17:13)
Yeah, so the therapy was helpful. Yeah, and I couldn't tell you who they were because I do not remember that far back anymore, they, you know, it obviously was very helpful. Yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (17:14)
It sounds like you found a good therapist then.
Yeah, yeah.
the right people, yeah. Yeah, that's
a big part of it. we can, and sadly, a lot of people don't access therapy after, you know, disclosure and stuff like that. It's getting better, but it's still, and you know, not everyone is, and I don't know your further experience in this, but, your opinion, but not everyone, not every therapist or counselor or psychologist is equipped with the tools to be able to, you know, help someone.
Danielle Cheeseman (17:49)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (17:50)
who has been sexually
Danielle Cheeseman (17:50)
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (17:51)
abused or dealt with any kind of abuse like that. So it can be quite a challenge to find the right people, but the right people will make you feel safe, will make you feel seen and heard. And it sounds like you had that.
Danielle Cheeseman (17:55)
Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely and I couldn't agree more. Even as an adult, I've had certain periods over my life where I have the benefit of...
I'm very insightful into how I'm feeling and that's probably because of those early therapy days where it's given me these tools. So when I had situations arise, like when I had my first child, when I was pregnant, I preemptively engaged a psychologist who was experienced and I have very specific criteria because I also have worked in mental health with a lot of professionals. So I know for me, I need it to be someone that is very highly experienced.
and they need to have a certain level of qualification and knowledge, which makes it a bit challenging sometimes, but I preemptively arranged therapy. So like the situation that happened last year with this person in our life, I immediately, the day I found out that this person was being charged with these offences, booked in with my GP, I took time off work because I knew that I was going to need to
process it because of my own experience and at that point it was a little up in the air about the nature of you know the offenses and how significant they were.
Kristi McVee (19:07)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Cheeseman (19:15)
So I checked in with the GP immediately, got a mental health care plan. They prioritized me as well, which was really good. And I got straight onto it, which was just so, so helpful. Just so I had an outlet to be able to, you know, let it all out and go, this is what's happening and this is, you know, how I feel about it all and just helping to process. So I think that's a really helpful tool to have for me now is being able to notice when I'm probably going to, whether I need it or not.
Kristi McVee (19:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (19:45)
just to have someone else, you know, there is really huge.
Kristi McVee (19:46)
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, and you said, well, not only in that instance, but you you knew that you needed to process some stuff about becoming a parent because, you know, obviously, your big your abuser was a parent in your life at the time. And so it's kind of like that. What a what a great realization that, OK, this is going to be tricky to navigate. need support here and to just go and do it, because a lot of us wait till we're in crisis point and then we're seeking help.
Danielle Cheeseman (20:02)
Mm.
Yep.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I was so much more scared than I needed to be in hindsight. I did cope much better with parenthood than I thought and my fears were probably a little over the top. But at least I was seeking help. And I prepared my partner. said, this is what you need to look out for. This is my concern. So that he knew if I wasn't seeing it that he could maybe pinpoint it as well.
Kristi McVee (20:30)
Yeah
he might be able to point you in the, yeah. That's so smart.
Danielle Cheeseman (20:48)
Yeah, it didn't come to fruition. So I'm really happy. But,
Kristi McVee (20:49)
That's healthy.
Danielle Cheeseman (20:52)
you know, it was I was just putting all these little things in place to make sure. Yeah, so. Yeah, and I would recommend that to anyone, to be honest, it was the best thing like it might have seemed over the top at the time. But I think having that insight about the possibility of how I might experience childbirth and parenthood.
Kristi McVee (20:56)
Well, you had a plan, you had an action plan.
Danielle Cheeseman (21:12)
in itself is protective. Yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:15)
Yeah, it's a protective factor.
I guess post your abuse growing up, having support, coming to grips with what happened, becoming a parent, what kind of things did you put in place between parenthood and then obviously this person who's in your life that you're like, that's kind of giving me the...
Danielle Cheeseman (21:33)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (21:38)
you know, my gut feelings are going off, my intuition's going off or whatever you were feeling at the time. Did you put anything in place in between? because one of the things that I hear from parents who are victim survivors is that they struggle with how, you know, I feel like I'm over the top, you know, or I've, you know, taking it to the nth degree. People think I'm overreacting. People think I'm being too much.
Danielle Cheeseman (21:40)
Mmm.
Mm.
Kristi McVee (22:03)
And I personally always say you can never be too protective because we just, there is so many factors in your world. It was obviously a family member. But you know, personally I'm like, whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better, but obviously let's get some supports and like have a plan in place because that's how we're going to mitigate, you know, those feelings of like, I feel like this is, I won't have control, something's gonna happen. You know, obviously you've,
Danielle Cheeseman (22:12)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (22:30)
you
did that really well. So what did you do with your own children that might have helped you or might have alleviated some of your own anxiety around it?
Danielle Cheeseman (22:38)
I think the very first place it started and it's definitely evolved over the years as I've grown and learned myself is at a very bare minimum I taught my children anatomically correct names for their parts. And that was because I remember very vividly the questioning that I had to answer as well. And it was, what is the name of these things? You can't give me pet names. It has to be a name of the actual anatomically correct
body part. So we were and people found that really uncomfortable because I would be openly saying no it's a penis you know it's this it's that and they're looking at me going no it's a willy it's that's so rude and I'm like no this is not what we need to teach them it this is what it is it's their body part we we all call it this this is what it is. So it was challenging.
Kristi McVee (23:04)
Private parts, yeah.
Mmm.
Yes.
Hmm.
Yes, this is the actual term. Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (23:27)
Yeah, was,
I found it odd that people found it so uncomfortable. So that was where it started, I guess. I had a lot of books on, you know, my body, my rules and different types of, you know, just teaching about their own body autonomy and safety and...
Kristi McVee (23:32)
Yes.
Danielle Cheeseman (23:45)
when they're little it was just very subtle little things you know just in general conversation and then as they got older and especially into school ages and then again now my child who's eight who's just got himself a watch that he can talk to his friends and call us because we've moved up to a remote town and it's kind of necessary up here so we've had to have those conversations again about not taking
Kristi McVee (23:50)
Mm, mm.
Danielle Cheeseman (24:10)
photos of you know if someone asks for photos of you we don't take photos and send it to our friends that's that's not something we need to be doing having conversations frequently about what is and isn't normal of people when they're asking yeah yeah so I it was
Kristi McVee (24:15)
Hmm.
appropriate inappropriate behaviour.
Danielle Cheeseman (24:33)
I did my own research as well around protective behaviours and I'm very grateful that my kids' schools have always been very proactive. So it's been taught since even in daycares right through. So that has been helpful and we've just expanded on that as well. Sleepovers were rare. My kids both are very, very attached anyway. So they prefer to be with us. However, you know, on the odd occasion if it was a sleepover, it's been with
Kristi McVee (24:35)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (24:59)
family member who we've had a lot of trust in. I like to trust my instinct with a person as well and if I don't I will get a vibe and if I get a vibe then that's it. I'm just not willing to even test the boundary and I think it's really important and something I often that's that's one of the parts that make me go stop overreacting. You're being silly you're looking at things that might not be there.
Kristi McVee (25:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (25:24)
And that is ultimately the thing that's been what's protected my kids with this situation that arose recently as well was just that gut feeling that I just don't want to risk it.
Kristi McVee (25:34)
Hmm
were they doing anything in particular this person?
Danielle Cheeseman (25:37)
In the beginning, not so much, but there was a backstory. There was some behaviour that had happened in their childhood that at the time wasn't appropriate and the family had dealt with it as best they felt they could at the time. So I had that in the back of my mind and although I wanted to believe that this person was recovered and it was just a situation from their own...
Kristi McVee (25:44)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Cheeseman (26:00)
trauma background, all the things I tried to tell myself would, you know, I'm probably overreacting, but I...
Kristi McVee (26:06)
Hmm.
Danielle Cheeseman (26:07)
I stuck with it. So as the kid started to get bit older and I guess he started to get a little bit more involved in our lives and was asking, you know, just a little suggestions like they can come and stay here with us if you want. And that was a never. That was absolutely not. I wouldn't.
Kristi McVee (26:20)
Mm.
Danielle Cheeseman (26:25)
This is where I feel like I probably went a little bit extreme as well. It's not extreme. I say extreme because that's how I felt at the time, but it is not and I'm very grateful for this.
I wouldn't change a child's nappy in front of him. I wouldn't let a child get dressed in front of him. I would not let him sleep in the same house or we had him sleep at our house on one occasion for an event and my children were in my bed with me that night just in case. And I would talk to other people in my life as well about...
Kristi McVee (26:49)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Cheeseman (26:57)
putting in boundaries for their own children because I was worried about that side of things as well. So I had a lot of worry that it could happen to other people if they weren't aware. But I also didn't want to breach. Yeah. But I also felt like I might've been breaching this person's confidentiality and privacy and like the life is different, who knows? But behaviors.
Kristi McVee (27:01)
Mmm.
Hmm, what a difficult situation.
But at the end of the day,
it was founded, wasn't it?
Danielle Cheeseman (27:22)
It was, it was and it was a big relief for me to know that I put in the right measures for the kids. Huge, huge relief. So yeah, but there was definitely some things, some key flags that I noticed towards the last sort of couple of years, I suppose that really made me.
Kristi McVee (27:31)
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (27:41)
go harder on the protective measures, I suppose. And there was an occasion where he'd asked one of the children that with if they needed to go to the toilet, unprompted. And I heard this and immediately stepped in and said, no, it's fine. know, if she needs to go, she can ask me and I'll, her mum will take her. There was a, it was.
Kristi McVee (27:43)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Danielle Cheeseman (28:02)
There was quite a lot of pushing of having sleepovers with other children in the family as well, like they can come and stay with us. He lived in another town, so it was like a little bit of a road trip if you went out to see him. So it was like, hey, the kids can come and stay here for the weekend and things like that, which I just didn't feel comfortable with. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Kristi McVee (28:08)
Hmm.
Yeah, weird.
And why the kids, why not the whole family?
You know,
why are you... And like, yeah, I can see where your Spidey senses were probably going off because, you know, if you live in another town and you're offering to take the kids for the weekend, why are the kids are not like, hey, everyone come out and stay, we'd love to see you all.
Danielle Cheeseman (28:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and it's interesting because I will say that that behavior wasn't the same for me as it was for someone else in my life that was close, whose children unfortunately were impacted by this. And that person did not feel able to put in the boundaries. And I will say she did put in boundaries, but probably just not quite enough.
Because I guess she didn't have the background insight that I had as well. There's so many reasons, so many things she was going through. Fiyah, she felt like me. I'm being over the top. So, you know, I'm, I can't judge him for this. I don't know what the situation really is. But his response to her...
Kristi McVee (29:09)
confidence.
you
What I find with a lot of parents, sorry, what
I find with a lot of parents is that lack of confidence, lack of knowledge, lack of awareness, lack of feeling like it's there, that it's okay if you say no to someone. You know, like that, that I have to say yes because they're making me, and because people like this person can be quite forceful, especially if they, it's like.
Danielle Cheeseman (29:32)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (29:41)
blood in the water of a shark, right? So they know that you're a little bit scared to say no or that you might not feel like you can say no to them. So they just keep pushing. So, sorry, I cut you off there. So what did they do to that person?
Danielle Cheeseman (29:44)
Yeah.
Hmm. And yeah, look, I will say...
So I would say that the other person was quite, was a little bit more vulnerable than me in many ways.
So I do think that that played a part because my children were never asked to go on sleepovers without me. Yes, we were asked to to hang out with them as a family, but never in that individual situation. Whereas with the other person, there was much more pushing, you know, would take a load off if I help you with the kids for the weekend because she was having a rough time. So it was definitely targeted, I guess, as
there was definitely a lot of intentional behavior happening there that was trying to make her feel safe and comfortable that you know I'm here to help you I want to make life easier for you which didn't happen with me and I think that is because of the differences in I guess you know she was in a much more vulnerable state at that time in comparison to me who has done a lot of work
on this subject I suppose. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (30:49)
Yeah, yeah, and they do,
they're really, they can be, and it doesn't matter who it is in your relationships, your lives, they can be very intentional with who they target. Wow. And so when they finally were, obviously, and it's tragic, hey, like you obviously know everyone involved in this situation. So it's so tragic that this person who, you know, none of these children deserve any of this. And it was, it's,
Danielle Cheeseman (30:59)
Yep, yeah, absolutely.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (31:16)
You know, it's so tragic when this stuff happens and you know, yes, it gives you that little bit of a, yes, I was right kind of thing. But then you're like, I was right.
Danielle Cheeseman (31:26)
Yeah, yeah. It's a really shitty feeling to say the least. There's this little bit of a confidence boost in me going, I've done the right thing and this is really enforced.
my decisions moving forward and how I'm going to continue to approach things and to trust my instincts. Like I just think that trusting my instincts is what has helped us, especially in this situation and not giving into them because I think I'm being over the top. But I had huge amount of guilt because I felt, and I know, and this is again because I've done a lot of work on these things, but I felt so much guilt that this had happened to other children. But I felt like I had done
my best to try and put in enough measures without overstepping into someone else's parenting journey because it's not mine it's theirs which is a you know it's a tough line to you know sit on you know I'm not the parent so I can only do so much yeah
Kristi McVee (32:14)
it's so difficult.
I know it's so difficult. I've been
there like as a parent myself, as a parent, as a detective, as a, as a just an individual who sees something and says something, but then also like I cannot control what anyone else does. I can't force anyone to do anything. And so it's such a difficult situation to be in when it comes to this stuff, because like you said, you you said something, you made some comments, you, you did all you could in that situation bar.
Danielle Cheeseman (32:20)
Mmm.
No.
Kristi McVee (32:44)
going and camping out with those kids when they were there or wherever they were. And you stepped in, you even stepped in about the toileting, going to the toilet, which is that, and that's purely based off of your gut feelings. So for parents who are listening and maybe have some fears or maybe their spidey senses are going off or they're seeing red flags, what kind of things can you, I mean, you've already mentioned quite a few, but like, what do you suggest for them?
Danielle Cheeseman (32:48)
Yeah.
Mm.
I think trusting your instinct is just the first and foremost. If there is something there, there's probably a reason why you're feeling that way. Trust it and go and seek some help or look or go and I guess...
get educated on the signs. Like in your case, I've read a lot of your resources, which is really helpful and I'm frequently sending it to my friends to say, hey, check this out, this is free, look at this. But there is so much power and knowledge and I think as parents, we have a responsibility to know this information and know how to protect our children.
Kristi McVee (33:32)
Thank you.
Danielle Cheeseman (33:43)
So trust your instincts, get educated, seek out extra help. If you aren't sure and you're like, I'm being over the top, then find someone to talk to about it so you can have someone else's input, preferably a professional or someone who would have some understanding of the situation rather than a family or a friend. yeah, bring it up. Bring it up with people. Have a discussion. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:55)
Yeah.
Talk to people, yeah, have those discussions. Hey,
and I always say, you know, don't have to go, like, I even had this conversation this morning with someone else. You don't have to go, hey, I think this person's a sex offender. But you could say something like, have you noticed that they spend a lot of time behind closed doors with the kids? Like, that's a bit weird for me. I don't really like that. Have you ever noticed that they are wanting to take the kids to the toilet all the time? I mean, like, it's really helpful, but.
Danielle Cheeseman (34:19)
Mm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (34:37)
the kids aren't wanting to go to the toilet. You know, like you can do it subtly like that, or you could do it like, I don't think it's appropriate for them to offer to go to the toilet all the time. Like if the kids need to go to the toilet, they're at an age they can go, I'm gonna speak up. And you know, do you think you can support me in talking about this with them? Or can you keep an eye on the next time this happens? And maybe step in because I don't want them to, look, I just.
Danielle Cheeseman (34:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (35:03)
I don't know why I feel this way, but this is why I feel this way. know, like, you know, you've got the history behind you, but I think the thing is, is that we, we see things or we feel things and I'll hear it from parents all the time. I heard it all the time when I was interviewing kids. I just, I didn't know how to say anything. So I'm so pissed off at myself for not saying something or I had a feeling they were like that, but I just didn't, there was no evidence. I didn't know what to do. Well.
Danielle Cheeseman (35:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (35:27)
you know,
get in between them and children that they have access to because that's really the most important thing you could do.
Danielle Cheeseman (35:34)
Yeah and potentially the only thing because you can't just go you know call the police and say I think this person is this. What evidence do you have? Well I just have a feeling it doesn't work that way sadly. Which you know would be nice.
Kristi McVee (35:44)
No, no it does not.
Danielle Cheeseman (35:48)
But yeah, and I think what this really highlighted for me, this situation, that probably I wasn't as strict on before, and I've always been someone who likes to share fairly openly on social media. My kids sometimes were involved in that, but not hugely, it was more so about me. But this situation brought to light that there was a lot of online content in this as well, a lot of photos, a lot of videos. Some of the videos that were described as being very
Kristi McVee (36:07)
Mm.
Danielle Cheeseman (36:13)
normal. Something that most parents would just see as I'm taking a normal photo of a child but maybe they're wearing a nappy or maybe they're you know having getting changed to go for a swim like fairly mundane day-to-day things that were then used for inappropriate purposes harmful purposes so
Kristi McVee (36:14)
Hmm.
so what you're saying is this
person was collecting photos of kids basically on their computer or on their devices.
Danielle Cheeseman (36:37)
yeah alongside other
yeah so that you know alongside the other offenses there was a lot of online content that they were curating from seemingly everyday photos so that really made me
Kristi McVee (36:46)
Yeah, right.
Yeah. And I've been,
I hate that I'm even like celebrating you saying this, but I've been banging on about this for so long, Danielle. And honestly, no one listens to me. No, they do. Some parents do. I know. And I had the same, like I used to see it before even AI was a thing, right? But I, you know,
Danielle Cheeseman (36:56)
Yup.
Mm-hmm.
It's really terrifying. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (37:10)
I've been out of the job five years, but when I was in the police, I was seeing the same things. When you arrest someone who's under suspicion of being a sex offender, a child sex offender, we generally check their computers and you would check their computers and all of those things that you said, the photos of your kids getting changed, the photos of your kids in their bathing suit, the photos of their kids in their nappy, in the bath, or even seemingly normal photos of your kids just looking pretty or handsome or.
good, whatever that they just collect them and they use them for their own nefarious reasons or their own reasons because that yeah, because that's what they do. parents are inadvertently sharing normal photos every day thinking why would anyone find this arousing? But it's we don't live in their world. don't have their illness or whatever you want to call it, their sickness or but
Danielle Cheeseman (37:41)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, exactly.
Kristi McVee (38:09)
But they do, they find that stuff for rousing.
Danielle Cheeseman (38:12)
Yeah and what's really terrifying about it that the detective was really, you know, really highlighted for us is that these photos they can delete the originals but they've already been distributed. We, there is no way to get this. This is their, who knows where, what country, who's got access to these photos for the rest of their life.
There's no way to go back and that's a really hard reality to face, to know that these photos are out there of your children.
Kristi McVee (38:39)
So you've changed that since then, like since you found all of this out, what have you changed and what have you implemented in your family?
Danielle Cheeseman (38:42)
Yep. Yeah.
So they are definitely not short shared on any of my private social media. Sometimes I might have a brief conversation about them. There might be a video from the back there. Yeah.
I am more steering towards not sharing anything. I'm even a little bit more cautious on my own private social media on my Facebook, which is all very private, only family and friends that I know. However, this person was on there. So that doesn't make that any safer. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:09)
Yeah, so you can't control that, hey. You can't control what someone
else is gonna do or how they're going to look at that photo or that video. So you're saying they're not on anything public, but they might be very sparingly put on your private stuff, is that right?
Danielle Cheeseman (39:19)
Yeah.
Yeah and I still go back and flick through because you know I did have them on my public social medias at various points so I have deleted a lot of that off my page now and I do little check-ins every now and then just to see because you know I do have blinkers on sometimes my first run I'll you know go that's okay I'll just leave that.
Kristi McVee (39:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (39:46)
And even my private page, my private Facebook, it's, you know, they have to be fully closed. I'm very mindful of the type of content that is shared on there. I am tending to not share much on there these days anyway, because I just think it saves me any heartache, to be honest. Occasionally I'll, you know, maybe share it privately to my close family who are back home in Perth where I'm up here in the Pilbara. So, you know, I'm more inclined to send it
Kristi McVee (39:57)
Mm.
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah,
Danielle Cheeseman (40:11)
them directly rather than...yeah.
Kristi McVee (40:12)
yeah. And that's a lot safer. I mean, you can never know what anyone's gonna do, but that's a lot of it. That would be my advice to parents is that just really consider that anything we put out there, we don't have any control once it leaves our device. do not know what anyone, even family members, close friends, we don't know what anyone wants to do with these images. And once upon a time we had the...
Danielle Cheeseman (40:27)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (40:37)
Family photo album that we pulled out once in a blue moon and we showed friends and we showed family. Now everything we do is just in everyone's faces and it kind of loses its importance and value. So we just think, well, that's something important. know, my daughter is, as everyone knows, is almost finished school. She's gonna be an adult next year. And it's been like this for quite some time now, but I will ask her, is it okay if I take a photo?
Danielle Cheeseman (40:39)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (41:04)
Is it okay if I, are you okay if I shared this photo to my private page? I never share anything with her in public, but is it okay if I share this with my followers, my private Facebook? And you know, sometimes she will look at it and she'll go, no, actually I don't want you to do. No, I don't want you to take a photo. And it's my job as a parent to, is to respect her wishes.
Danielle Cheeseman (41:05)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (41:31)
And it's so funny because I've given her that autonomy and that, and like you said at the very beginning, teaching your kids bodily autonomy also includes teaching them autonomy of when they wanna be included in online stuff as well. So I think that's a really good, that's a good point for parents and for people. And I know that it sounds, guess we went from sharing nothing to sharing everything to now having to go back to sharing like very sparingly because
Danielle Cheeseman (41:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (41:59)
The world has evolved so much and we didn't know what we were doing when we were first on social media.
Danielle Cheeseman (42:05)
Yeah, yeah. It is crazy. It's a scary place, that's for sure.
Kristi McVee (42:06)
It's crazy.
Danielle Cheeseman (42:10)
there is lots of things we can do to make it less scary. And you know, my experience is like I've got a very first hand experience, but I feel like I'm still optimistic that, you know, we can have a good life and I can keep my children from harm and give them enough independence to still be kids and have some freedoms.
Kristi McVee (42:13)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (42:28)
It was a big part of why we moved to the Pilbara and to a small town as well. was, you know, we get a lot more of that up here as well, which is really nice. So yeah, you can still, it's not all bad news, I guess. It feels scary and overwhelming like you're restricting everything, but you're really not. I just think your child's safety is...
Kristi McVee (42:38)
Yeah, it feels like it, but it's not.
Hmm.
Danielle Cheeseman (42:48)
first and foremost and just because you haven't personally experienced it or seen it doesn't mean it's not happening and we need to always have that in the back of our mind because it's far more common than people would ever want to believe.
Kristi McVee (42:54)
Hmm.
Oh, I did.
I was driving my husband's still I've lived in the Pilbara. I grew up in the Pilbara and I was driving my husband to the airport this morning at five o'clock in the morning because he flies out to the Pilbara and he was so I was driving him there and I'm like half asleep and I'm like one in three girls and one in five boys. That's two out of eight children. That's one out of four.
Like I was doing the fractions at five o'clock this morning. It's one in four children will be sexually abused before they reach 18. And you literally just have to start. And this is my experience. I'm not sure about you, Danielle, because obviously you share about your experiences and this is what I love about. What I do is that it's giving people a voice the minute we speak up and we're.
Danielle Cheeseman (43:25)
Yeah. Yup.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (43:46)
openly sharing with compassion and empathy for everyone, then it gives permission for other people to share. And so when I share about what I did, what I do now, I always get disclosures. I always get people telling me that they were abused. And more often than not, I can go into a party, into a room, and they find out what I do, and I will get told at, you know, a handful of people will tell me that they were sexually abused as children. and you know, that's a...
Danielle Cheeseman (43:52)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (44:13)
It's an honor for them to trust me with that information, but it's also really scary and sad that people, know, a lot of people have been sexually abused and probably have never told anyone or haven't felt safe to talk about it. So the conversation we've had today is really important.
Danielle Cheeseman (44:29)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think if people can feel a little less alone in what they're going through or what they've been through, they're more likely to speak up and get help. And yeah, it's really important.
Kristi McVee (44:41)
So, so important. I find that for women, we find it a little bit easier, but there's so many men who've been victims of sexual abuse and they go years and years and years without telling anyone. It affects their whole life. become, know, abuse, domestic violence, there's like anger and shame and all of these things that like limit your lifetime and your joy in your life.
Danielle Cheeseman (44:50)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (45:08)
And just by having some, you know, going and talking to a therapist, getting some help, you know, sharing with your family and being open and honest, it can take all of that weight off your shoulders and make it such a beautiful, not a beautiful experience, but you could have such less burden in your life.
Danielle Cheeseman (45:24)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've certainly seen that firsthand working in the mental health space as well, the impacts of, you know, people who have been abused in childhood and they've come through the mental health system in inpatient capacity. So it's very obvious to me in that space, but maybe not so much to those who maybe don't see it every day.
Kristi McVee (45:43)
Mmm.
Yeah,
so the couple of things that I've taken from this little conversation, not little conversation, this conversation is teach your children about the correct terminology and their anatomical terms. You use them in your family because they are really important. First of all, because they help a child if they need to disclose, but they also help protect a child because if a child knows what everything is, then they can't be.
Danielle Cheeseman (45:56)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:14)
and that it's theirs and it's, you know, their body safety rights and no one can do anything, like not no one can do anything, but it will reduce the amount of things and hopefully reduce the length of harm if something happens. The second thing you said was get therapy. No, you didn't. You just said just seek help in some way, or form and, you know, and know that it's helpful.
Danielle Cheeseman (46:28)
Yes? Yes? Yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:36)
The other things that you said was don't share kids photos if you can help it or be very mindful about sharing kids photos and trust your gut. That was the big one.
Danielle Cheeseman (46:43)
Mmm. Trust
you girl. Yeah, especially. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:48)
Anything else to
add?
Danielle Cheeseman (46:49)
Look, not really, I think we covered a lot. That definitely summarises everything. And it's still an area that I'm learning and growing in as well. So I don't get it right all the time. But that's okay. I think we do the best we can with what we know.
Kristi McVee (46:51)
We have.
you
Danielle Cheeseman (47:05)
my goal is always to educate myself further so that I can do better. It doesn't mean that it wasn't good before, it's just now I've learnt differently and I will do accordingly. I think that's important. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (47:12)
we can do better. Yeah. And that's parenting in a nutshell, isn't it? You know, like, I mean, we always come,
I learned so much. My daughter's been the biggest teacher for me because everything I thought I knew, I knew nothing. And then, you know, and just being open to exploring that we might not know it all, but once we do know better, we can do better. And that's exactly like why we're having this conversation because
I'm sure there's mums and dads and people who are listening out there that, you know, they're going to hear you say, I felt something, listened to my, I put some protective boundaries in place and factors in place. And actually it was, I was right. you know, so whether you, we might never know if we're right or wrong, but it's not worth the risk.
Danielle Cheeseman (47:55)
Yeah.
It is not. And although at the time when I talk about it and say it out loud it sounds like I put in these really crazy things but at the time it was much more subtle. I didn't have to be so obvious about it. I was discreetly doing these things. No one would have had a clue that I was discreetly taking a child off to change them. you know it was just it was all very subtle the things that I was doing. It just felt really...
Kristi McVee (48:11)
Mm.
Yeah.
Danielle Cheeseman (48:25)
big to me. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:25)
Extreme it felt extreme and over the top because
you you you were doing something that you knew Only you really had that feeling like everyone else was probably around this person or around going what? You know and yet they didn't seem like they were seeing what you were saying because you had those those extra feelings You've got your radar turned to maximum basically Yeah
Danielle Cheeseman (48:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:48)
Well, thank you so
much for chatting and I've got a lot out of this. You've just proved it, like not proven, but you just I know a lot of parents struggle with this conversation, especially if they're victim survivors themselves, because people who don't understand will make them feel bad and they will make them feel like they are being extreme and over the top. I think the one of the other things that you pointed out is having an action plan for a lot of this stuff and knowing what you're going to do if something doesn't feel right.
Danielle Cheeseman (49:05)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (49:16)
that can just alleviate some of that stress and that feeling like you're not being, like that you may be being over the top or too extreme. And that might just be the answer, like coming up with a little system or a little idea on how to make that work for you. That might be the one thing that helps some of the parents listening.
Danielle Cheeseman (49:19)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (49:36)
Well,
thanks. Have a good rest of your day, Danielle.
Danielle Cheeseman (49:39)
Thank you, I will do.
Kristi McVee (49:40)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or cape-au where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
