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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE Podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education Podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learnt, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Hello and welcome back to the Operation Cape podcast. I am so super excited. It has taken almost a whole year to [00:01:00] get this woman to sit down with me and have a chat. But I would love to introduce you to my really good friend, Kayleen Kerr. Now, how I met Kayleen, very interesting story is that I was a very young junior constable.
I'd only been in the police for four years I was living in Karratha at the time, and I went off to detective training school and there was Kayleen Kerr doing part of the, I think it was the sexual assault training in, at detective training school. And that's when I met Kayleen and since then we have Worked on and off with each other.
Kayleen also did some of my training when I was requalified as a specialist child interviewer later in my career. And then we. Connected after we left the place or I left the place, Kayleen was still there and now Kayleen is 100 percent focused on doing similar work that I do in educating and empowering parents and children in you know, [00:02:00] sexual health in porn prevention of sexual abuse and all of these other things.
But today we're going to be talking about porn which is a really interesting topic and Kaylene has so much experience in it. So thank you so much Kaylene for being here. I didn't have anything planned for what I was going to say. So that was all on the fly.
Apologies.
Kayelene: But
Kristi: yeah, Kaylene, so I've explained that you, you were in the police and and you've been out of the place for a couple of years now, I think from memory.
But you were in the job for a long time, way long, but longer than I was. So tell everyone about, you know, your experiences.
Kayelene: Yeah, sure. I don't know when you were listing that off, then I was starting to feel a little bit old. No, I want to go back to, yeah, definitely feeling old there, but I'm not, I'm seriously not.
No, it's interesting because I often think now and you probably yourself and many people will think this Steve Jobs quote always comes to mind. You can't always connect the dots when you look forward. It's only when you look [00:03:00] back across your, your life and your career and your experiences that you can see that sometimes.
Things kind of happened for a reason, maybe at the right time. Yeah. So it's interesting because my journey around an interest in human psychology and sexual offending and exploitation actually started in about 1992, 1993 I went after I finished high school, I went off to uni, I did. A degree that was a combination of law, psychology and criminology.
At the time, I was always really fascinated by why people do what they do. But much to my parents dismay, instead of going on and doing a full law degree. I did what I said I was going to do from when I was in year two at school. All I have ever wanted to be was a police officer. So after I finished uni, I went off and joined WA police and I ended up staying there for just about 21 years.
And spent 18 years working as a detective in lots of different areas. But I think week one as a police officer, actually shift one as a police officer, I was involved in my first [00:04:00] sexual assault investigation and then it just never stopped for the next, yeah, a couple of decades. And I think when, when you've sat in the places that we've sat, we, we see things, we hear things and for me, it really really that passion for proactive prevention education.
Started from seeing the worst that can happen only being involved in children's lives and young people's lives, their parents, their carers, their family, and the wider community after harm had already occurred. And I think, yeah, I did it for a couple of decades. I didn't fall out of love with being a police officer at all, but I think that desire to.
To be proactive in our efforts to prevent or minimize and reduce the opportunity for harm to occur or equip kids with some skills and strategies so that if they are being harmed, they, that we get early detection in place so that they feel that they can seek support and help and talk to someone about what might be going on for them so that they can get that, you know, the abuse can.[00:05:00]
Hopefully be ended, but also that we can get that therapeutic support in as early as possible because we know that sexual abuse changes the whole trajectory of people's lives, their hopes, their dreams, their aspirations. And when we look at the harm over the life course, it is significant and cannot be understated.
Yeah, so really passionate about proactive prevention
Kristi: education. Yeah, and that's really what it, what it all boils down to. Same for me, like, I think we just saw that there needed to be more proactive prevention put in place you know, more awareness. And we're seeing it slowly, but when you and I were in the job, it wasn't around.
We didn't see it then. Now we're starting to see people speaking up. So
Kayelene: thank God. Yeah, absolutely. And I was just actually, I was thinking back when you were talking. I remember the specialist child interview course because I actually came in on my day off, would you believe to present on that course because the person running it said, oh, which.
You come and talk about pornography to these [00:06:00] specialist child interviewers. And I was like, yeah, sure. I'll have to come in, you know, on my day off and do that. And I actually remember, I think I do have this memory of us talking briefly there and you shared something. I think your daughter might've been in primary school upper years or of primary school then.
And she'd had an experience. And that was a few years ago, but yeah, fast forward yeah, the conversation is happening more so in the mainstream. But when I first started talking about pornography as a police officer in a detective's office, honestly, it was like crickets. Or, oh no, there's no big deal.
Nothing's going on. And, you know, starting to connect the dots that we were seeing more children displaying harmful sexual behaviours that didn't have The typical antecedents that we were used to, but they were children that had access to the internet. And that, you know, that increase in youth produced sexual content and image based abuse.
And I remember when sextortion started nine or 10 years ago but it was mostly targeting adult women at that time. Yeah. And, you know, younger and younger children with these devices that [00:07:00] fit into their pockets and go into bedrooms and bathrooms and private spaces. We, yeah, we were definitely seeing that the start of that, but nobody really wanted to talk about it a huge amount or it just wasn't a big deal, but things have changed.
Yeah.
Kristi: I really wish us as a society, Australian society and Western societies would take a bigger picture look at. Issues and go at, we could prevent so much more stuff from happening if we just looked at the big picture more often and realize that it starts with a trickle, but then it becomes a river or a flood, you know, and what we're seeing now is a flood of problems.
So yeah, so you were talking about this stuff, like you were talking about the fact that pornography was going to be a big problem for kids, you know, in the future. And has that come
Kayelene: about?
So I guess when I first started raising the alarm, it was. Realistically, maybe 11 or 12 years ago and then about [00:08:00] 10 years ago now, I had a school contact me and they wanted me to come and speak to their young people about some of their sexual practices that they were engaging in within consensual intimate partner relationships.
Now I'll not just park for one moment the fact that these were 14 and 15 year olds. Yes, they were under the age of legal consent, but there was no power imbalance. There was no coercion. So if we put that to one side, the concern was the sexual practices they were engaging in were ones that they were seeing in pornography.
They were copying. And a female actually sustained some injuries to her body that required hospitalization. And I don't know if I'll mention what that particular sexual practices were. Yeah, it was fisting. So they were watching fisting pornography and yeah, so you can. Imagine, I mean, this is a sensitive and challenging topic and so I had this school contact me and say, could you please come and talk to these young people about porn and how it can, you know, impact real world.
And I said to them [00:09:00] no, I definitely don't do that. But let me find you someone who does. And so I went on a little bit of a search for someone that could go and talk to these young people about porn because child sexual abuse, exploitation, sexual assault, sexual violence. Not a problem, but this was just something a little bit different 10 years ago.
And so I looked, I looked all around WA, I looked across Australia, I looked globally, and I just couldn't find anyone that actually spoke to young people. I did come across at that time the amazing work of Marie Crabb from It's Time We Talked and Marie's done just amazing, well bleeding.
Yeah, without peer, she is exceptional in this space. And she, at that time, you know, created a lot of resources for professionals, for parents and carers, but didn't do direct delivery with students. And so in the end, I kind of, I did a huge deep dive into the research, best practices, Does where pornography actually sat in relation to some other things that already already existed to some [00:10:00] extent, like protective behaviors and comprehensive sexuality, educational relationship and sexuality education.
And yeah, created something went and spoke with these groups of young people and it was amazing. They were so open to the conversation. They shared so much. It was very enlightening and they also showed that willingness to talk about these things and they wanted to talk about it. They didn't have anyone to bounce ideas off to, to get any sort of shame free, evidence based, inclusive, positive information.
And I thought, wow, there's a massive gap here. And that's kind of when I started talking, talking to young people. Specifically about pornography I still say that porn shouldn't sit in a silo on its own. It should be just one conversation that we have under a broader umbrella of a relationship and sexuality education or comprehensive sexuality education.
But unfortunately, fast forward to 2023 and it is only really [00:11:00] just now that I see that there is more of a political appetite to say, yeah, we've got something going on here and maybe we need to do something about it. Yeah,
Kristi: yeah, I'm 100 percent with you. I mean, I remember that conversation I had with you and I was telling you about my daughter and she's given me permission to talk about it openly because you know, she's just one of many children who have this and the actual incident you're talking about was when she first saw porn for the first time.
And, and what's the current statistic on that? Because it, what's your
Kayelene: take on that? Yeah. So if we look at the, so if we look at the research, we look at the data average age of first exposure to pornography for a really long time sat somewhere between about 11 and 13 years of age, which when we think about where children development.
Mentally at that time, it's at a time when they're starting to get some interest in what they've got, what other people have got and how that all goes together. So developmentally normal to be curious [00:12:00] and seeking information. But the, the nature of the content they're seeing, I think we could have a much bigger conversation about.
But now if we now look at the research it is that number is starting to, to come back in age. So anecdotally in Australia, New Zealand, the UK, the U S. You know Canada as well. The average age of first exposure is being reported as somewhere between about eight and 10 years of age. Anecdotally, there are children that.
They're much younger, and of course there are children that are older when they first come to pornography. The, the research from Owl Watch, so we, there was some research done here in Australia by Owl Watch just probably 18 months, two years ago, that said the, by about age 13, of just under half, about 48 percent of boys have been exposed to pornography.
And they're watching pornography for three years before their first sexual encounter with another human being. Yeah, [00:13:00] that's a long period of
Kristi: time. Yeah, yeah, that's scary. That's scary for me. I mean, I know that, you know, that's scary for me as a parent of a daughter. Because imagine what kind of pornography, and we know that pornography can create certain paths, you know, at that at young age, you and I both know if you've never studied this or, or seen the research, it creates neural pathways.
It creates, it, it sets them up for what they like in or what they think is stimulating. There's some really big issues with having three years of porn consumption before starting having sex, because it's going to create, and this is talked about, if you're in our circles, it's talked about, it creates that disappointment when they do actually have that.
Also that first experience. But my daughter was 10, so she was 10 at first exposure. And the reason why she saw porn for the first time was because she Googled sex. And if you Google sex, what's the first thing [00:14:00] that's going to pop up? Porn hub, all of the, you know, porn sites are the first thing.
She clicked on a video and she saw about a minute, you know, minute and a half of a video and it freaked her out. And so she, and just luckily we'd had all of those protective behaviors and body safety talks and all of those talks and she felt safe enough to come and talk to me, but that's not always the case in families,
Kayelene: is it?
No, and I think I'm like, there's so much we could unpack from that really. I guess, where I always start is the probably the reason that your daughter actually came and spoke to you when she saw something online that was shocking, upsetting, scary for her, confusing made her feel anxious, she came and spoke to you because of the relational connection.
So as a protective parent who was, you know, having age and developmentally appropriate education around protective behaviors and body safety and all of that, she was able to come in and speak with you. And so many children don't have that. So they see it. [00:15:00] They can't make sense of it. They don't have an adult to come alongside and advise it in a way that is agent developmentally appropriate.
And they're so scared of getting in trouble, having their devices taken off them. Or that it's, it's awkward and uncomfortable to talk to a grown up about, you know, private body parts and private photos and videos. And, and so they don't have that. And then what we see happen is curiosity starts to become an issue and then kids do gravitate back towards content, content that when they first saw it, it was incredibly distressing, incredibly upsetting for them, but curiosity is there.
And so they go back to it. And it's perhaps unsurprising then when we think about the physiological response because pornography viewing after some time. It's not passive. It's interactive. It is most often accompanied by you know, some form of masturbation or touch that may result in that powerful, very powerful physiological response of, you know, orgasm which can fire and wire those neural pathways, but it [00:16:00] can really reinforce those neural pathways in their brain.
And perhaps then it is unsurprising when we get to adolescence, if they've been watching pornography over a long period of time, that when they actually get to do. sexual things with whoever they want to do that with that. Yeah. Disappointing. Absolutely. But we also have people that they're, they're aroused for the pixels on the screen, not the human being in front of them.
So yeah, it can have an impact. And I'm not, look, I'm not suggesting for one moment that pornography affects all children and all young people in the same way. And I think it's also important to acknowledge that we're talking about pornography, but we all know as grown adults that porn's not new.
I remember DVDs, VHSs and magazines. Yeah, so it's been around a long time. But I think if we talk about pornography and we don't actually talk about what is mainstream pornography, if parents are thinking about this, If they're not a current or recent consumer of pornography, and many parents aren't, [00:17:00] they will often think back to a variety of pornography they may have seen, been exposed to, or viewed in their childhood or adolescence.
Yeah, back in the day, in the old days. And, and that is just. Yeah, and that is completely different to what our Children are seeing today. And I think that's why I really unpack what kids are seeing and why this is an issue before we get to, well, how do we address it? So yeah, I think it's, it's really, really important.
And you know, you said your daughter was 10. When I first started in this. I was only talking to year 11 and 12 students and really only contacted by high schools. Then I increasingly got contacted by schools to speak to year 9 and 10 students and now 7 and 8, but I get more phone calls from primary school in relation to pornography.
Issues in some way, shape or form than secondary school. So just in that 10 year period, you can see this real sort of like dialing back of that, that [00:18:00] first exposure yeah, for our children. And these are our children and it's prepubescent exposure, which we know can be problematic because it is an incredibly formative part of their human development, but also their their sexual development as well.
Yeah.
Kristi: Yeah. And, you know, I always, when I think about it and I think about our childhood and, and, you know, the porn that you were talking about, you know, it was. Magazines under your brother's bedroom bed or, you know, or whatever, right? And those magazines required you, the person, the user, to use their brain, like, to think about it, to imagine what was going to happen.
But, you know, like you said, not most, not all parents are looking at the, at porn. And, unfortunately, you and I have to go on to places like Pornhub and stuff to get To, to have a look at the headings and to see what kind of consumption is there because you just have to look at the front page of Pornhub to see what kind of consumption [00:19:00] people are consuming.
Yeah. And, and it's not pretty. It's not pretty.
Kayelene: Yeah. And I can I, I mean, I can see the shift as well just in my own experience when I was at university. So back in the nineties I was actually studying pornography on the internet and child sexual abuse material on the internet. This was the 1990s. It was just after we really.
Had access to the internet. It was dial up. It was entirely different. And then we had the introduction of high speed internet around, you know, the 2000s. And then, as you would know, as a detective, particularly working in sex crime and the child abuse squad and all those other spaces you do see a lot of pornography, adult pornography and a huge amount of child sexual abuse material.
And so I was able to see it over that, you know, 20, probably 27 years, the real change in the nature of mainstream pornography. And it's that shift in the content that the pornography industry started to produce that I think parents are not aware of. It's not that kids are seeing you know, pornography where [00:20:00] maybe two people or, you know a group of people are engaged in sex where storyline there's touching, there's kissing, there's oral sex that's performed both ways.
Fast forward today and it's gonzo pornography. Gonzo pornography is 95 to 97 percent of mainstream pornography and it's associated with rougher, more degrading, humiliating ways of engaging in sexual behavior with another person, um, or couple or a girl. aNd I think that we really need parents to understand what that is, because if you've got the luxury of time, I always say to parents, you know, think about your thoughts, your feelings, your beliefs, your values around pornography, because they will likely influence your conversation or your.
Desire, except to lean into this conversation. It's going to influence what you say, but also what you don't say and how you say it. And because people's attitudes can be so different around pornography. I'm not someone that tells adults what [00:21:00] they should or shouldn't be doing. There are people that are pro pornography.
There are people that are anti pornography and there are people that sit everywhere in between the focus of my work. And, and, you know, your work. Is children, our children and young people that did not ask for these 100 billion a year industry to practice. But I also, even though I focus on children and young people, I don't think we can shrink away from the fact that children become young people and young people become adults and sexual practices, your sexual behaviors, your expectations, your understandings.
They're developing through adolescence. And they will have a real world impact as an adult when you get engaged with another person sexually. And I saw that particularly within sexual crimes and the changing nature of sexual crimes. So the sexual acts I first started advising on. Stealthing when stealthing first became a thing, like the removal of a condom during sex.
[00:22:00] Sex was consensual, but it was consented under the understanding that a condom would be used. And then the condom would be intentionally removed during sex. Also saw the rise of non fatal strangulation. So someone putting their hands around a person's throat and applying pressure, which is incredibly dangerous and incredibly scary for the victim who's experiencing that.
So yeah, I think that we, we need to understand that this is a conversation about children and young people, but it's actually so much more than that. And I think that we also need to accept that this is a topic where people have lots of different attitudes around it. It's very emotive. And you know, some people will think that pornography can be healthy and helpful for individuals, couples, or groups.
Porn can be unhealthy, unhelpful for individuals, couples, or groups. It's a great way to explore sexuality. It's a terrible way to explore sexuality. You know, watching porn without your partner's knowledge is fine. And then other people would say that that is unfaithful and a breach of trust. Some people say [00:23:00] watching a little bit of porn's okay, but a lot of porn's not okay.
You know, I don't Don't watch porn, but I don't care if my partner does. I don't agree with mainstream porn, but ethical porn's okay. There's nothing wrong with porn. Everyone watches it. And then someone else will say, look, porn destroyed my relationship. Porn led my child to display harmful sexual behaviors.
So If we say to our kids, don't watch porn, it's terrible what we have to know is that's not going to limit their exposure and it's not going to equip them with the skills and strategies necessary to respond to it, to understand it, and to seek some help and support from a trusted adult. So I think we, we have to do the work on ourselves first.
Yeah. And then I would, I just don't, I want to enlighten parents. I don't want to frighten them. I want to prepare them. I don't want to scare them, but this is a scary topic for parents. It's sensitive, but we have to step into this because far too many children are seeing pornography. And mostly the first time they see it, it's [00:24:00] unintentional exposure.
They didn't go looking for the porn, the porn found them. Or, like your daughter, they put a word like sex, boobs or porn, spelt the wrong way, into their browser. And if you don't have as a base free parental controls or third party paid parental controls, or just put your browser into restricted mode, because that can filter out a lot as well, they're going to get catapulted onto a porn site.
There is no age gating, there is no Age verification. There's no, you know, put in your name and your, or you put in your date of birth and tick the button to say you're over 18 and then tick another box to say you didn't lie about being over 18. There's not that. They are on a porn site. It's a user generated platform, just like YouTube and global users, over four and a half billion people can contribute content to that platform.
And sometimes that content is illegal. Sometimes that content is child sexual abuse material. Sometimes that content is the filming of a real world sexual assault, or a person has been [00:25:00] consensually engaging in sex with someone, but didn't know that that was being filmed and then put on a porn site.
And then let's have a look at the mainstream pornography. When I say that it is. You know, it's a violent, it's aggressive, it's degrading, it's humiliating. I think we actually need to unpack what that looks like in practice, because a lot of parents and carers and adults that live, love and work with children, I don't think they really understand what it is.
And not that I want to encourage any person who's not a current consumer of pornography to go and start watching porn. I actually think that every parent should go and spend 20 minutes on a mainstream porn site, go to PornHub, YouPorn, RedTube, go to the top three that kids go to, watch the videos. And then think, well, that is going to be my child's relationship and sexuality education.
If I or other trusted adults don't step into this place. Yeah.
Kristi: Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. And one of the, it's not easy. No, it's not. And even for [00:26:00] me, I don't know about you talking with your children, but even for me talking to my daughter, when I first started having these conversations, it was uncomfortable.
And I. was trained to talk to kids. It's, it's not easy, but it gets easier the more you do it. I did want to mention in all of that that, you know, the, with regards to my own daughter, you know, she had, you know, the progression of her Exposure to porn was she had saw it at 10. We had a conversation.
We discussed it. I have made sure that everything was locked better down. You know, I thought I had it all locked down, but still managed to happen. And then I moved on to, you know, when she first started high school. So at 12 years old, she had people boys, mostly sharing porn around the school and it was anal porn.
And you know, and they're talking about it. They're moaning and groaning, you know, all of these things, all of these behaviors that we're seeing is because of exposure to pornography. Now, like you, I [00:27:00] have the same opinions. It's not all bad. We just need to ensure that our children aren't seeing things that they don't understand, that they're not.
Having you know, that way we know what they're consuming because ultimately it can also lead to sexual assault and harmful sexualized behaviors, which I wanted to talk about next. So when I first started in the job, when I first started in the jobs, harmful sexualized behaviors. So this was 2010 harmful sexualized behaviors, which is the you know, sexual touching sexual abuse.
Of other children, basically. But when I first started, harmful sexualised behaviours generally were an indication of harm, the child being sexually abused. But at the end of my career, harmful sexualised behaviours were being shown way more in children who had access to pornography than that actually had been sexually abused.
What do you
Kayelene: think about that? Yeah, that was that was exactly my, yeah, absolutely. So I guess yeah. And I just would go back to what you said, you know, before, because I think this is really important for [00:28:00] parents. Like let's all work from the premise that you don't know what you don't know. And when you know better, you can do better.
And like you, even though I'm, and I played a long game with my boys. I went for the thousand one minute conversations. I had. The luxury, but also it's not always a luxury to know what's coming and to know what's out there. So I didn't try and do all the conversations all at once. I started early. I continued often.
I played around because my two boys have very different temperaments, personalities, and ways that they would engage in conversation as well. And so I try, I, yeah, I share that with parents. job. There's lots of different entry points for education. We've just got to be, be in there and do it. But even all of that, you can lock your home down you know, free with your modem router or your, your parental controls that are free.
You can use third party paid parental controls, but both of my children's exposure one in primary school was from another student. And [00:29:00] the only difference is when my son was in years, my youngest was in year six. He came home and he he was actually exposed to porn in year four but in year six he came home and he said to me, mom, I understand about sex and all those things we've spoken about, but today some of the boys, they're not in my group, but they're in the sport group that I hang around with.
They're all sitting around. And one of the boys was giving a description of how you actually, and the word was do sex to a, to a woman. And he goes, I understood everything he said until when he. He said, then you stand up and you wee all over her and I don't understand what that's about. Yeah. So, and I'm like, Oh my goodness, my poor little baby.
And he's on the young, both my boys are on the younger side of their years. Fast forward a year later. Year seven, my son is sitting in the auditorium at school, the first day of school in the first two hours where all the new year sevens get told what the school rules are around digital technologies and [00:30:00] they, their devices hit the school.
And the kid sitting next to him, his last sight of viewing was Pornhub. And so my son looks over and he's like, and he came home and he goes, look, mom, it was porn, but I'm just so worried. Is he going to get like kicked out of the school? So he came home and spoke to me about the porn. And I was like, oh, this is great.
So now he's gone to school when he's seen it. Yeah, in school, which we know happens to lots of kids but you know, he came home and we're talking about the poor one, but his bigger concern was, is this boy going to be expelled from school? And I'm like, look, we had a conversation about that. And then I just said, I'm so glad you came home and told me about that.
I wish you hadn't seen that on the computer. And I reckon we had the most amazing two hour conversation just randomly over. Him seeing something, but him like your child, like your daughter having the relationship. There was a thousand thousand conversations beforehand. So when we hit pornography, we were able to do it.
And I say this now having a 16 and a half year old who told me very recently. That [00:31:00] it's okay for me to talk to other kids about porn, but there would be no more porn talk with between him and I and I, and I said to him, I'm like, oh, buddy, like I'm like, dude, I totally want to respect that. I've got so much more I need to tell you that I haven't said yet.
And he said, and I said. He goes, well, sorry, it's not happening. And I said, well, that's okay. I'll find some other ways to do it. So I've come up with a pile of other ways to make sure that he gets the information. So, you know, we work in this space, I guess what I want to say, it doesn't make it perfect.
It doesn't mean that when our children don't get exposed, it doesn't mean that we're not going to choke in the moment when we go, Oh my gosh, my poor little baby's somewhat. But we've got to, we've got to move through that discomfort because we need to support our kids. Absolutely. And I guess, yeah, for me children displaying.
For sexual behaviors is when I really started to raise the alarm here in WA. I still to this day think that we have gaps in provision of service, we have gaps in funding because nobody was even considering pornography as a [00:32:00] potential pathway. trigger or amplifier to the onset of children displaying harmful sexual behaviors.
And like you, when you were investigating sex crimes, I saw a significant shift in children displaying harmful sexual behaviors. Firstly, in the sheer number of kids that started to do that. Yeah. The way in which they engaged in sexual practices and behaviors, and that many times these were children that did not come from homes where they were.
A victim of sexual abuse, whether it was family and domestic violence, where there was a hyper sexualized environment where there was lack of parental presence or caregivers, lack of secure attachment and all of those things that we see. These were children that had access to devices that connected to the internet and parents didn't even, they thought you had to log into a special part of the internet to access porn.
They just had no idea what their kids could access. And, you know, that here's stuff for this. School, it's showing stuff on at a play date or whatever, they're [00:33:00] curious like your, you know, kids are and, and we, we cannot discount the impact or the role that pornography is having. And when we look at the Royal Commission findings, you know, 30 to 60 percent of child sexual abuse was committed by children and young people.
And when the Royal Commission started, they didn't even have that on their radar. They had to create a whole volume specifically for this because they had expected to be speaking to adults who had been harmed in institutional settings by adults. And very quickly they realized that children and young people were sexually abused in institutions by adults, but a lot were also abused by children and young people as well as adults.
Yeah. And they They really highlighted that pornography was something that we needed to be considering. And I also came apart because the data is scarce in this space, but we've got a bit of research now happening in Australia that's really specifically drilling down on this. But I was listening to someone [00:34:00] from the East Coast speak recently and they actually found they went back and looked at their longitudinal data and so they looked at young people who had displayed harmful sexual behaviors, but had a very low a score or had a very low.
Adversity in their childhood. So these were children that had never been sexually abused. They weren't living in hypersexualized home environments. There was no family and domestic violence. There was secure attachment. These kids had great relationships with their, their carers. And of the 20 young people that didn't have any adversity and, and trauma or my treatment in their child childhood, 15 of them are.
reported that they got sex education. So 15 of the 20 said, yeah, I received some sort of sex education. And 12 of that 15, when, when they were asked what that sex education was, they said it was pornography. And a hundred percent of those 12 had been Goes to porn and were frequently viewing it. [00:35:00] Before the age of 12, only three had had any conversation or education from other sources.
So we can't blame everything on pornography, but I think we were, for such a long term, we time, we weren't even considering it. And that was frustrating me. You know, a. A poll done in the UK recently found that one in five children 12 to 13 saw pornography that shocked and upset them. And one in 10 reported being worried that they were addicted.
And we can argue the semantics of children having a porn addiction, but they, what I would say is this is one in 10 children worried they were addicted to porn. These are children that are starting to identify that their viewing of pornography is starting to become problematic for them, for other people.
And in some research by the news the what was her name? The children's commissioner and England. They found that children as young as eight and nine wanted their parents to discuss pornography with them. So yeah, our kids are seeing what content are they seeing? They're seeing [00:36:00] non consensual.
They're seeing coercive content. They're seeing choking. They're seeing gagging. They're seeing slapping. They're seeing hair pulling. They're seeing people being spat on, kicked. Bidding, yep, that's the big one. Kids started to talk to me about that. A study done in the UK of 150, 000 videos from the most visited porn sites found that one in eight titles advertised to first time viewers or users of porn.
They showed sexually violent, coercive and non consensual content. So it's not just that our kids are seeing porn. It's what sort of porn are they seeing? And a recent study, 42 percent of people had seen incest themed pornography as well. And you think about the relationship between harmful sexual behaviors and incest themed pornography.
So when we start to put all of this together, I think the end result is as uncomfortable as it is, as scary and tricky as it feels, we have to step into the care, safety and protection of our children and we need to lean into education and [00:37:00] conversation. Yeah,
Kristi: it's, it's troubling. It's very troubling.
And I think for parents, I think, you know, you're saying eight or nine, you know, I would agree 100%. I wish I had have had a better conversation with my daughter before 10. And, and, and, you know, like we, she's not harmed or traumatized by the fact that she saw it at 10. But, you know, I wish I had of back then now looking in hindsight, as it is, I go, okay, well, actually, it was really good because she came and saw me.
We talked about it. It created a conversation on many conversations since, you know, but I guess. I'd imagine parents listening to this podcast is like, Oh, holy shit. Like what the fuck? So how about we leave them with some, how about we leave them with some help? So what are some ways that you, or when do you think parents should talk to their kids or, and what could they be saying to age [00:38:00] appropriately to their children?
Kayelene: Yeah, absolutely. I guess this is what I've so it's a scary topic and we've sat in that space and I sat in that space for a long time, even in proactive prevention education. So the big focus of my work is let's talk about the issue, but let's talk about what we can do about it. And there is so many age and developmentally appropriate things we can do, and it can start from birth.
But we're not going to start at pornography. So I don't want people to think about a conversation about pornography in isolation. I want it to just be one conversation, you know, where we need to be talking about social and emotional intelligence, empathy, diversity, equality, social norms, gender stereotypes, growth and development, reproduction, puberty, respectful relationships, but let's talk about friendships first and then we can get to intimate partner later.
You know, protective behaviors, body safety, consent, body autonomy, body boundaries, respect, media literacy, online safety relationship and sexuality, education, sexual health, reproductive health. Let's talk about [00:39:00] body image and and then let's get to pornography. So I guess what I'm saying that is there's actually lots and lots of entry points.
for conversation. So I'm going to skip over a few of them. Yeah. And like, I always feel like I'm doing a disservice if I just jump straight to pornography because I don't want, I don't actually want parents to do that, but let's go straight to pornography. Yeah. The
Kristi: worst thing you could do is go, okay, now we're going to talk about porn.
Kayelene: Yeah. Yeah. So that's why in my work, I build into pornography. So we start unpacking a pile of other stuff and then let's get to porn. So let's go to porn. To be able to talk about porn, we've got to be able to talk about private body parts. So kids in, in some, well, in Western Australia and other Australian states, not all, they're already learning about public and private clothing, places and spaces, behaviors, information, and body parts.
We can then add in public photos and videos and private photos and videos, and it fits really nicely there. We've got to be using correct language or something [00:40:00] close to for the private parts of their body. So I always said you know, if we can teach children correct terms like, you know, penis and testicles and scrotum, bottom, anus.
vUlva, vagina, breast, nipples, let's use that language, but also if there's language that is unique to your culture, your family let's make sure that children know that if their private parts are hurting or they've got questions about it, or someone has touched them or tried to touch them, then they use the correct language because people don't get confused.
And I can say is having two boys that got taught the correct term. There is no doubt in my mind, they know them, that they have found it great sport to share with me every word they've ever heard at school that wasn't penis, scrotum or testicles. The most recent one they came home with was schlong and I was like, go back to school and try again.
I heard that when I was at school, but I guess. Let's talk, let's be comfortable use that training wheels time to get comfortable talking about body parts. I had my first conversation [00:41:00] with my son the day I brought him home from the hospital on the change table. And I thought I had, you know, so much hit me in that moment.
And I started my first conversation by just naming body parts. Let's do that in ways that are age and developmentally appropriate. And you can start that at birth and continue it all through the early years. Then let's be specific about private photos and private videos. If you don't like that language, no problem.
Talk about photos or videos where people are naked, not wearing their clothes, private body parts showing, private body parts touching, whatever's going to work. So let's bring that language in. And then These are the typical responses of children when they see pornography the first time. They're shocked, they're confused, they're embarrassed, they're scared.
It's weird and gross are the words I hear the most from primary school age kids. They feel guilty, ashamed. They're curious, but they're also worried their parents are going to be disappointed in them. So, and you know, when you said your daughter saw pornography and you had lots of conversations and you [00:42:00] don't feel like it really for her, that there was a lasting negative effect of that.
Our children. see and experience loads of shocking things that could be considered some form of trauma and there's different forms of trauma but our kids do see and experience you know things that are really upsetting and the protective factor there is when they have a safe adult to talk with about it to them to contextualize it and make it make sense for them.
And most often if parents are in this space around pornography, that'll be okay. It's not going to have a negative lasting impact. The issue we have is when kids Have no one to talk to. They internalize it. They start watching it. Then they start to act it out. And it becomes harmful for them or other people.
So once we've got private photos and private videos in place, let's start talking about where kids see porn the most, which is the internet. So I came up with a pile of conversation starters. I used with my own boys way back in primary school. So I'm always really positive [00:43:00] about the internet because parents aren't, and we're shutting the lines of communication because all we ever talk about is.
How horrible the network the internet is. Everyone's addicted that we've got to nag a lot. Kids push our boundaries and that just closes the door. So let's get them open, participate in their online world and find all of the ways you can speak positively about what they're doing and there is. Stacks and then say, like I always said, like the internet's really awesome.
I'm so glad that you've got access to it. It's and I love all the ways that you use it to create, to connect, consume collaborate, all of that, find the good stuff. But if you ever see or hear you're sent or shown any words, photos, or videos that make you feel well, first of all, that you've got questions about.
Please come and talk with me about it. So start with really open and you'll see here, Christy, that I'm actually using quite very open Ted's questions which is an investigative style. Yeah. Then we can say, yeah, if you see or hear your scent or shown any words, photos, or videos that make you feel scared, confused, [00:44:00] uncomfortable, embarrassed, anxious, weird, gross, ashamed, whatever it is, or unsafe, please talk with me or another trusted adult about it.
And then, if you see or hear your sent or shown private photos or private videos, please talk with me or another trusted adult about it. But we have to go one step further because that's not going to be enough. I think we have to say the internet was never made for children, and there's stuff on the internet that's illegal and it really shouldn't be there.
And there's some stuff on the internet that is not made for children's eyes. And I understand that you might come across something at some point and you're going to need to talk to me about it. But you can't do that if you think that I'm going to tell you off or take your device off you or try and fix it.
So I'm going to work really hard to not overreact. I'm just there to support you. You can talk to me. You can tell me and we're going to work through it together. So you can see there. That's the relationship. [00:45:00] Yep. And if you want me to share with you when, how, what happened for your listeners, when my, I was saying this to my son in primary school.
This is, this is the bit that I go, don't ever discount a thousand conversations where you feel like your kids are not listening and you're like going, Oh my goodness, it's not going in. So my youngest is now at the end of year nine. So he's going into year 10 and he's heading to towards 15. But back when he was in year two.
And we'd been having conversations and really child friendly, really low level. He was at school one day and the teacher called me because there'd been an incident with my son and a cow. Now, when she said a cow got parent guilt, cause I'm like, Oh my goodness, there's an incursion and excursion I've missed like, Oh, and I said to her, has he been bitten?
Is he gone to the hospital? Do I need to come and get him to go to the doctors? And she goes, Oh no, no, no. You misunderstand me. A cow is computer on wheels. And then I went, Oh, isn't that funny. So. There's an incident with my son and the computer that went into the classroom for this one lesson a week. [00:46:00] And I was like, Oh, great.
The filter fails on my kid and he sees porn. Cause that's kind of where my mind went to. I didn't say that yet. Yeah. Do you know what it was though? This is the best bit. Well it's terrible for the toucan bird that was involved, but what he was doing, he was doing a Google image search and he found he's an animal lover.
He found a bird that poaches and removed its beak. And he closed the lid of this laptop. He walked over to the teacher and said that he'd seen something really upsetting on the internet that he didn't think should be there. And he wanted to let her know because at school he trusted his teacher. And you know what that demonstrated to me is the thousand conversations where I just felt like I was talking to, you know, myself.
Brick wall. Yeah, brick wall, definitely. And it was when I wasn't with him. Yeah, actually had heard what to do and did it and he didn't show his peers. They didn't make a big deal about it. It was really upsetting. And we found the picture together when we got home and I said, yeah, I can see how that's really [00:47:00] upsetting for you.
You know, on the inside, I was actually going for to Canada. Oh my goodness. Thank goodness. That's all it was. It worked. It worked. It worked. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we have to give kids strategies as well. Make sure that we tell them. If you see something upsetting on the internet, words, photos, or videos, because let's not discount the reason I include words is because of online harm, interpersonal conflict, cyber bullying the way that kids speak to other kids when they're gaming, like the words can be just as harmful as other stuff.
So if you see here, Sam, showing any words, photos, or videos, That make you feel all of those things. What can you do give them the in the moment strategies, whether that's, you know, close the lid, close your eyes, put it down, look away, move away. Go and show a trusted adult what you've seen and talk with a trusted adult about it.
And the reason I say, you know, just, you know, move away from it is most kids that I speak to and those that are seeking therapeutic support is [00:48:00] that it was really, really shocking, but it's kind of like a car accident. You watch people on the freeway, they're rubbernecking and, you know, you know, you're going to see something you might not like, but you can't help, but keep on watching and that often happens for kids as well.
So them to move away from the device, show an adult. Yeah, because the reason and show is because I see have seen and you probably saw this as well during grooming behaviors, whether that was in online places and spaces or in the physical world that very often when kids are sent pornography, parents think about adult performers.
But actually kids to desensitize and normalize child sexual abuse, they're actually sent child sexual abuse and exploitation material. So if your child says, I saw naked photos or private videos on the internet, your mind might go to adult pornography. But in fact, they could have been sent pornography, child sexual abuse material.
So that's why I think it's important that we. We see it and we can help them make sense of it. It also [00:49:00] allows us to frame our response accordingly. Yeah.
Kristi: And I did want to, there's so
Kayelene: much more I
Kristi: could say, but I think we're running out of time. I did want to say though, like it is normal for you as a parent.
To flip out and to stress and to worry I would suggest, you know, and I have had to have a moment like where I've put, you know, covered my face with my hands and had to breathe like deeply for a moment from the freak out of the fact that my daughter saw, you know, and I've just said to her, look, mom needs a minute.
You know, I'm not angry at you. I'm not upset at you. I'm just really, I'm just really stressed or overwhelmed or whatever words, the right word for you and your family at the time. But I've just gone, I just need a moment, just a moment. I'm not angry. I'm not upset. I'm not, you know, mad. I'm just needing a moment and you know, it's okay.
It's okay to need that as well.
Kayelene: Yeah. And when you do that, I always say to parents, look, try and as best you can with the emotional [00:50:00] regulation strategies that you have available to you, if they work, is like, you know, try, do try and manage your emotions in the moment, but you know what our kids see stuff and it is upsetting and it is, it is, you know, you're so hurt.
You're so disappointed. What I always say is, look, if you have a big emotional response. Okay, it's happened and try and have it like, you know, I'm just gonna go and make a cup of tea and then do all your breathing and you're like, ah, well, yeah, that's it. If you can't though go back to your child and say, Hey, you know I just want to make sure that you, you understand that I was disappointed that you'd seen that I'm angry that you so easily was sent that.
I'm not angry at you. I'm not disappointed in you. I'm just disappointed with the situation because otherwise that can actually contribute to shame, self blame, guilt, and then those lines to communication close again. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. And while One of the things I often use with my own boys is, you know, you [00:51:00] can talk to a point, but then sometimes you just need to, the conversation needs to come to the natural end point, but there's still so much to say what I would and then sometimes I would just forget stuff and I'd think about it and go, Oh my gosh, I forgot to mention this.
I always go back to my boys even now and I go, Oh, we were talking the other day, totally forgot to mention. And that's my entry to the conversation again. So it's not, you don't have to do it all at once. It's not one conversation. You've got thousands of repetitions and opportunities to do this. Yep.
This is a, this is a really it's a difficult topic to think about. Don't think that you have to go out and do this all now. Do it slowly. But just don't discount and don't think that maybe your child will see porn when they're in high school.
Kristi: No. Maybe they won't. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. It's, it's getting so much easier and, and even like on platforms like TikTok and Snapchat and all of the platforms our kids are involved in.
It's, you know, glimpses of things, , they're being [00:52:00] over sexualized, hyper sexualized, whole other conversation, but you know, they're seeing it everywhere and we don't have the control that we wish we had sometimes, so we need to address it so that they've got the
Kayelene: tools in place.
Yeah, and that conversation started that set of three that I gave you a way that this was used by a child a couple of years ago. And so let's just step away from pornography for a moment and think about all of the whole things that happen in the world that are now recorded and streamed is a few years ago when we had the Christchurch killings in New Zealand.
Yeah. A lot of parents read an article or. Or a redacted video. I was working with children in primary school that watched an 8 to 24 minute video that showed the up close execution of human beings. And these were children that parents couldn't understand why they were suddenly sleeping with the light on again.
They were really scared. There was a pile of behavioral changes. And it wasn't pornography. The kids had seen a really brutal act. It can be animal cruelty. There's [00:53:00] beheadings on YouTube. Like, there's so much stuff that is too much too soon for our kids. So, have the conversation. Get the Lines of communication open, but don't do it all at once.
Kristi: No, no, good. Good advice. So Kaylene I always ask at the end of the interview that, you know, I kept thinking when I was writing my book and I wrote some of this stuff in my book. So it's so funny that you've just said the same things that I wrote in my book. We obviously had very good trainers. AKA Kayleen.
Anyway, so so one of the things I've wanted to I always ask is if, if when I was writing my book, I kept thinking if parents knew what I knew, they would do things differently. And I mean, we've covered so much in this talk. I mean, I think we need to do another one, but it took a year to get here.
So maybe in another year's time, we can talk about something else. But
Kayelene: yeah, let's book
Kristi: it in now. But yeah, so. The thing I, I just kept thinking if parents knew what I knew they would do things differently. What would you like parents [00:54:00] to know that could make a big difference in their child's
Kayelene: life?
Oh, there's so much, but if I had to bring it down into something that's really succinct and easy to remember, irrespective of if it's the places and spaces kids spend time online or in the community in, in all the places they spend time we need to supervise and be protective in our parenting.
We need to educate them. We need to have conversation. We need to participate and build relationships and put value into the relationship because all of those things are a protective factor. They may not guarantee that your child is not harmed. Because we can't do that, unfortunately, but we are opening up those lines of communication that should the child ever be in any form of unsafe situation, they know how to identify it, recognize it, they know what to do in the moment and afterwards, and they know how to access help and support from trusted adults that will listen to them, will believe them, that will hold space for them.
We need our kids to know that we are [00:55:00] askable, adults that they can talk with about anything and it doesn't matter what it is. And parents get educated because there is actually so much you can do. When I talk about situational crime prevention and I go back to my university days, but I talk about it still now is don't get so focused on who's going to harm a child.
So because a lot of parents get fixated on the who is going to harm a child, whether that's online or offline, it could be anyone. And as you, I, I interviewed and arrested politicians, doctors, lawyers, teachers, police officers, electricians, generationally unemployed people that harm children. I don't know what a person looks like, what profession they'll come from.
wHether they'll be an old man with gray glasses, or actually they might be a child that's the same age as yours. I don't know that, none of us do, but what we do know is how they commit offences. And it's the how they do it that is a million opportunities for entry to conversation and education.[00:56:00] But parents need to engage with protective behaviors and body safety workshops, go to cyber safety and digital wellbeing workshops, learn about pornography come alongside our children in the same way that we do with road safety, water safety, sun safety, food safety.
We have a thousand conversations. We do it over time. We don't do it once and say, Oh, well, you should be right. Cause crossing the road now. And then our child has an accident and you kind of go, Oh, well, if you'd just done what you were told that one time, you wouldn't have got hit by a car. But we don't do that.
So let's value, let's value the work that you and I, and a few others in this space to do. Cause we're here to help parents. So if you knew what I knew, if you'd seen what I'd seen, you'd get educated, get educated. Yeah, that's what we need to do
Kristi: 1000 percent and I can totally I, I mirror and voice everything you just said.
So thank you so much. Kaylene. I love talking to you. I feel like, for me, you're my [00:57:00] hero and you're my mentor and I'm so grateful to have you on here. So how can people find you online? How can people find you if they want to follow you?
Where are you? Yeah, so,
Kayelene: Yeah, so my website is www. esafehero. com. Kids. com. au. You can find me on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn if you're a professional, but that is the only place and spaces you'll find me online. Yeah, and I try and share stuff that's helpful or provoke some thought and conversation.
Oh, and there's lots of, yeah, lots of book resources and stuff on my website. Cause I think we need to, to provide that sort of stuff to help parents along as well.
Kristi: Yeah. And I would suggest anyone listening to go and check out Kayleen's website because she does have a lot of book resources there for sale.
And, and also, yeah, definitely follow Kayleen on Instagram or Facebook or whatever. So thank you again so much, Kayleen. I know you've got a big day tomorrow. All right, sorry, we will be back again in another couple of [00:58:00] weeks, we will have another conversation. I'm sure I'd love to delve into the harmful sexualized behavior space eventually.
So maybe that's a conversation we can have in the future. Yeah, cool. See you, Caitlin. Yeah.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McPhee. KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a signed copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Don't [00:59:00] forget to join our free Facebook group called Operation KidSafe Parenting Group. Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
