S2 Ep 6 Carol Todd
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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Welcome back to the CAPE podcast, the Child Abuse Prevention and Education [00:01:00] podcast. I am so super excited to be with the amazing Carol Todd today. Carol is all the way over in British Columbia, Canada, which is makes it very interesting to book in a podcast interview with time zone changes and all of the things, but it worked out well today on this Sunday.
Um, Carol, I'm going to let Carol tell you all about how she, who she is and what she does and why we're having this conversation. But first of all, I want to explain how I met Carol. So last year I went to a conference hosted by the Queensland Police and Task Force Argos. , and if anyone hasn't heard who they are, Task Force Argos are the leading Police force in, I think, in the world almost on, uh, identifying children who are in child exploitation material and child abuse material.
And they work with all the worldwide, , leading experts in, uh, you know, finding children and, and seizing, and, and finding these people who do [00:02:00] this harm to kids. But that's how I met Carol. Carol was the first speaker on the first day and her story is so impactful. And so, um, it left a very big, I was very blessed to have met her and, , we've kept in contact and so here we are.
So thank you for being here today, Carol.
Carol: Well, thanks for reaching out and reconnecting. I think it's great that you can meet people from different parts of the world and still keep in touch. And that is, of course, one of the good things. That technology has been created for
Kristi: yeah,
Carol: it's an aside I mean we're going to talk about some of the darker side of technology.
But that experience in Australia I just I keep talking about it that was one of, I think, since I've been on this journey, since my daughter died. And she was. You know, the [00:03:00] online harassment and exploitation, um, that, that conference in Australia was one of the most profound ones I've ever spoken at.
Kristi: Yeah.
So, that's, that's good. It's good that you look, I mean, who would have thought, and I'm sure you didn't think that. You know, with Amanda. So just for anyone listening, Carol Todd is the mother of Amanda Todd and, um, the Amanda, and she's the founder and creator of the Amanda Todd Legacy and,, I'll get you to explain, , Amanda's story in a moment.
But, , Carol has been traveling. Who would have thought that you would be traveling the world and talking about Amanda's story? Story, um, and coming to Australia, like it had a profound impact on myself. I mean, I had to speak to you and I had to connect with you and, and we had a few conversations and, um, yeah.
So I'm just so grateful that you, yeah, that you shared that, that you came to Australia and that we can think, and [00:04:00] like you said, it's one of the good things about, like the digital world is being able to reconnect and connect with people. , and that's one of the good things about it.
Carol: Most definitely. Um, and part of, I think, Amanda's legacy is to ensure that her story continues to be told out there.
Um, when it, the exploitation and this extortion was happening to her and, and you know what, she, she also had to deal with, , bullying and cyber bullying amongst her, her real life peers, right? So she had a whole bunch of things happening to her. , But if, if she was watching all of us, , she would, I think she would be very proud, um, that her story has created so much conversation.
Um, when she died, sextortion wasn't even one of those words that we were aware of. Right. It was just [00:05:00] called, , exploitation. And we didn't even consider it. Child sexual abuse at the time technology facilitated child sexual abuse, right? So she has done so much
in life and in death And I just, I, I, I give my appreciation and love to my daughter because she created that video, um, five weeks before she passed. And that video has been seen, I don't know, 50 million times around the world. And if you, if you type it in, like there's lots of kids around the world who have, who are doing projects on cyber bullying or, or child sexual abuse or whatever.
Um, And her video will come up and it, and she has basically shared her entire story in eight and a half minutes. And even in the trial [00:06:00] against her, when her predator was brought to Canada to stand trial, , they showed it in court. Right. And it became Amanda's testimony, even though she wasn't with us.
So that's how, that's how profound that this is. And, and I always walk around going. Who would have thought? Who would have thought?
Kristi: I guess for a lot of Australians, I had first heard of Amanda, , when I worked with another organization and they used part of her video as their, , for children in school to educate them about, you know, extortion, exploitation, um, cyber bullying, et cetera.
So for anyone who hasn't heard about Amanda and her legacy and what you are doing now, can you give us a brief rundown of When it all happened and, and just obviously the story because yes, they can go on YouTube. And I really do recommend people to go on [00:07:00] YouTube and look up Amanda Todd legacy. Um, or it is under Amanda Todd legacy, isn't it?
Carol: Well, if they go to Google and they go and type in Amanda Todd legacy, it'll bring you to our website and on our website. Um, the video is right there on the front page. So that might be easier than, than searching,
yeah. And I've also realized over the years about how I've told Amanda's story. And so it stretches, sometimes it's detailed and now it's more compacted, right?
So for those, for those listeners. , who don't know Amanda's story, Amanda was, um, how do I, how do I start, where do you start in this? She was, she was a, a active, inquisitive, [00:08:00] curious, , child. Yeah, from the day she was, and she had a passion for singing and art and physical activity. Academics wasn't her strength and we realized that when she was six years old and we found out that she, um, did indeed have a learning disability.
Carol: And so it answered a lot of questions. And so, uh, the disability basically was. More language processing, which when you think of the language processing, , as she grew up into preteen teenhood and the conversations that happen, you know how fast girls can talk, right? Yeah. Well, Amanda was missing pieces of that because of her processing, but being proud, she would never admit that she didn't understand everything and she couldn't.[00:09:00]
Like she couldn't express herself in the way she wanted. So things came up that people got upset. Um, her passion was, was singing and somehow she learned how to, , video record herself singing and post and learned how to post it on YouTube. Now, these were the days when. Like she didn't really get her first iPhone until, , she was 15.
Hmm. So she was using a regular cam recorder, right? That, yeah. That you had to plug in USB to computer and upload. And so she was doing those kinds of things. Old school . So old school. And, and that tells you how, how far back we go. Um, so back in 2000 and I don't know, she was, she was probably about 12 and she was uploading videos of herself [00:10:00] singing like, like, , Justin Bieber.
I can't even remember. Was Taylor Swift around that time of it, just maybe, yeah,
Kristi: maybe
Carol: just new, right. Katy Perry, like she was singing cover songs and then uploading, um, And getting comments because you could comment you I don't think back then you could actually close all your comments in YouTube. And so they were coming and they were flattering.
Right. You're a great singer, you're really pretty. Can you sing more unbeknownst to all of us, who was on. Who was on the back end. And so, like, this was back in, , she died in 2009, right? Wow. Right
Kristi: at the beginning. Right at the beginning of all of this stuff.
Carol: Right at the beginning. And, and [00:11:00] who, as parents, um, how much did we know about the internet back then?
Not enough. I certainly didn't know everything about the dark world, right? Um, It was more of, you know, in real life, don't share personal information, , don't, don't talk to people you don't know, like on the street, be careful of, of what you see out in your community. , Didn't even, didn't even faze me to have the conversations like we're having now, back then.
And so, this person who, who was. Or there was a bunch of people, but there is one specific person that continued to groom Amanda to flatter her. Right. , And eventually, like he told her he was a 15 year old boy. Um, eventually down the road, we [00:12:00] came to realize that this one person had 22 aliases. He was using 22 profiles on social media that he was using to talk to Amanda with.
Kristi: And
Carol: so he would, he would flip one on, like flip a profile on, flip a profile off, and then go back and talk to her. Eventually he convinced her that, you know, she was such a great singer to come into a room and, and sing for my friends. And now we know what kind of rooms they were, right. And then he built the trust and eventually they were, I guess, in a room and he asked her to take her.
To lift up her shirt, and she did, and he took a screen capture of it at that moment. Um, and then he, then the threat started that he wanted more. He wanted more pictures, he wanted more videos, and when Amanda [00:13:00] eventually kept saying no, he said, if you don't do it, then I'm gonna share your images and videos.
Amongst your family, amongst your Facebook friends, , cause there was only Facebook back then. There was Facebook, there was, , what was it? There was YouTube, Facebook, there was email, Myspace, there was Myspace, um, and then, and then there were some darker,
Kristi: yeah,
Carol: some darker like Facebook. Websites that I think Amanda eventually funneled down into, right?
Um, and so as soon as she wouldn't, then he shared it. And I remember that the night that I got the email, Of her image, and another family saw it that called the police, and they came to do a wellness [00:14:00] check and that was the start. of a sort of investigation, right?
Kristi: Police didn't know what to do with things like that back then.
Carol: No, they didn't. They didn't have the equipment. Um, they didn't have the capacity to go into a different country to, to do investigations. Or, I mean, now when you look at all the, the resources out there worldwide to go and, And, and search with a case file, like Canada goes to the US, Canada goes to Australia, Canada goes to the EU now, and they're all working together as best they can, right?
But back then, it was like, it's VPN, we can't do anything, we can't find it, right? , so eventually, this lasted from 2009 to 2012. That this person continued to communicate with Amanda. And, [00:15:00] um, as soon as her image came out to her peers, um, even the conversation to, to kids back then, it wasn't as in depth as it is now.
Kristi: Right.
Carol: And so there was a lot of bullying face to face. There was a lot of cyber bullying, , amongst her peers. A lot of, um, shaming, a lot of judgment, a lot of name calling. And you know what, when you're, when you're doing that to a 13-year-old, they can't handle it. Their brain capacity just doesn't, they just want to be friends with everybody, right?
Yeah. But the kids were mean. They were, and mean isn't just, they're vicious. That's a light. They're vicious. Right. , and so when Amanda moved, um, to a different community with their dad, I guess kids, kids like with social media, they know each other from everywhere, [00:16:00] right? You'd have to move to a different country, basically.
And so when Amanda moved to a different community and a new school, it started all over again because , it had spread of what Amanda had did, right? And, and I think now, kids, kids look at it, they still shame and they still judge, but they don't shame and judge like they did back when this was happening to, to Amanda.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so, she was tormented for, Two and a half years, and, um, she created her video in September of 2012, and just to share her story, and unfortunately in October of 2012, she died by suicide. It just, it was. It was just a lot. And even when you talk about mental health, , and I got her the help she [00:17:00] needed, but what she was looking for was support from, I guess, a support group from peers that were struggling too.
And there weren't any back then. There's lots now. You can even find support groups online. And so, it was, it was just one thing after another that, that helped. Just built up in her life that made her falter, right? , and then, so, after her death, about a year later, uh, we got, so when Amanda died, her, her suicide death was highly visible.
It was high profile because of, she had created this video, um, and, and that video that had 300 views, The day before she died, jumped up to a million, 24 after, 24 hours after she died, and, and hence her story got shared all over the place. Um, [00:18:00] and her death was just, I guess they labeled it, it as cyberbullying and bullying as a result of, right?
Um, everyone had forgotten about the online predator and the police had, Had closed the file and then in 2014, I got a call that said, , they had actually caught someone and through Facebook records, , they had linked, um, Amanda's profile to this, this predators and he lived in the Netherlands.
Kristi: Wow.
Carol: Um, and he, he had all, was also victimizing other young, young girls.
Right. He had a whole scheme going on. , so they, they charged him. And at the time Canada decided that they wanted to trial him, bring him to court. separately and bring him to Canada. So that took 10 years.
Kristi: It
Carol: finally [00:19:00] came to fruition, the summer of 2022. In the meantime, he was brought to trial in the Netherlands for his other victims.
And he was given 11 years for that, , in the Dutch courts. And then in, in summer of 2022, he was held on trial out here in Vancouver. And, um, It was charged with five charges, , criminal harassment, two charges of child pornography, , exploitation, and communicating with a minor, and it was a nine week trial.
I went as her mom every day to the courthouse. , I saw Aiden Caban the back of his head every day. Um, he also, he had pleaded not guilty, of course. And I was truly scared that the jurors would get so confused over the evidence because it was a lot of [00:20:00] explaining what technology was and what he did and how, um, the experts found him.
, But the good thing is that the jurors found him guilty and he got 13 Canadian years. And just last December, so when you get Canadian years and, and under a treaty agreement, Canada had to send him back to the Netherlands, and the 13 years had to be, um, transferred to Dutch, the Dutch judicial system.
Kristi: And
Carol: last December, December 2023, the Dutch changed, converted it to six years. Thanks. Better than nothing, but at the
Kristi: same time, wow,
Carol: the struggle. If you have to look at it in a different point of view, there was [00:21:00] conversation that he may not have gotten any Canadian, like he may have gotten zero, just the way it was being converted.
Right. Um, and that he had already done, he had done the crimes a while ago. So when you think of it, he got 11 years the first time. In his first trial. And he got six years for Amanda's. So you put 11 and the six together and you get 17. That's, that's a long time. So he's still sitting in prison.
Kristi: Thank goodness for that.
We don't want him out because he's a vicious human.
Carol: And, and, you know what, Amanda. This been 11 and a half years since Amanda died she would have been 27, and we still talk about her as, as a, a current story. And so that's one of the good things and that's why you and I are, are here talking. But if [00:22:00] she hadn't made the video, we wouldn't be here talking because she would have just become another statistic.
And
Kristi: we're seeing and hearing so many young people, so many young people taking their lives because of this, because of sextortion, because of, you know, bullying online, because of all of the things that are happening, that our kids don't have the capacity to deal with.
Carol: I know. And, and now with the sextortion and the boys, right? There's traditional sextortion and there's financial sextortion and, and financial sextortion with the boys. It's all about the money aspect. Um, I watched a, a video, funny enough, I watched a video created by, I think it was the Scottish or the Irish police and it was created like eight years ago and it was about sextortion.
Really? And so what happened is like, I don't think we, we took it, [00:23:00] no one took it seriously as a, as a teaching point. Um, until recently, until these, these rings in Nigeria or in Thailand, they started getting the boys. Right. It's been happening to girls for a really long time, but it took it happening to boys, which makes me angry to a little bit, right.
, to, to heighten it. Because if you look, I have my Google alerts that, right. And it's all about the financial sextortion and the boys and you know, 91 percent of, of reports now are from boys. And it's like, my message is. If you have a girl, please don't stop talking about this because it's still happening to the girls.
Kristi: Yeah, I agree. And interestingly, , the 2022, um, Internet Watch Foundation, , their report, and I don't know [00:24:00] if you've seen it, but their report was that, , around 96 percent of all of their, so they get the, they're based in the UK and they get all of these, um, child exploitation material and they get like all of this stuff sent to them and then they assess it, they send it off to the correct.
Places if they can locate where the child is based, because obviously behind every video and every movie and photo is a child that needs help. And, um, so they'll send it off, but they'll also do a report. And in that 2022 report, 96 percent of all of the videos that they received were of girls. And, um, young girls as, you know, unfortunately from birth up to, you know, 17 and, uh, but the largest group of girls that were being exploited, um, and when we're talking this multiple categories of exploitation, right?
So there's the self generated child exploitation material, which is where the young person takes the video or photo of themselves, um, versus the, the [00:25:00] other one where the adult who is abusing the child takes the video or photo. 96 percent of girls, um, they were taking their own videos and photos and the largest group that were taking them with age between seven and 10 and 11 and 13.
So what we're seeing is, is our young people, because we're not, Because we're behind the ball and because we're not doing, we haven't kept up with what's happening, our little girls, um, are being exploited. And they had something like 250 something thousand reports in one year. And, and it was like 96, 000, uh, seven to 10 year olds.
And, and you know, that 11 to 13 year olds, it was double that. And it was, it was just, We need to be mindful that it's not just boys. Yes, boys are being targeted by that financial sextortion, but our little girls and our young girls are being just as exploited, but it hasn't had the same spotlight [00:26:00] on it.
Because like you said, boys versus girls and girls, interestingly, when I go into a classroom and Carol, you're also a teacher and you teach now digital literacy, and you go out and talk about this stuff. And girls. They seem to know that, that this is happening and just shrug it off. Some of them they're like, Oh, well, it just happens.
And it's a little bit less, it's a little bit less like, Oh my God, shock and horror, how could this be happening? But it's almost like it's expected.
Carol: And I think, you know, I shared a story with you. Someone shared a story with me, a grandma, and this was just last week, and she said her 11, her granddaughter, who's in grade 6, shared with her that they had, her and her friends group had become aware of Amanda's story.
Now, whether it was a school presentation, or I, I really don't know. Um, but the friends [00:27:00] group. , and they all talked about it. They went online and did some deeper researching on it. And what this, this granddaughter said to her grandma was, . You know what we all talk about how we don't want. What happened to Amanda to happen to us.
So we are being more careful online. And we are learning how to be safer online. Which is great. You know, I'm so glad that. That happened. And actually, another friend of mine, um, who has a son in grade seven, Um, a presentation just last week and Amanda's story was featured and he said, he actually raised his hand and said, my mom knows Amanda's mom, but he came home and he chirped.
He reiterated everything that he had learned in that presentation. And so, Presentations are great. Follow up [00:28:00] are great. But a lot of the kids that know and understand what they need to do to be safer online also get that conversation at home. Right. It's not just school. It has to come from home, the community billboards, they just need constant reminders of What they need to do to stay safe online.
And unfortunately they need to be told what can happen on the dark side. And I hate, I hate being so. negative nilly, right? But sometimes like Amanda's is a real story and you've got real stories that have happened in Australia too, um, with, with online illicit behaviors, but we need to share those with our kids.
And what I've learned is we need to, we need to tell our kids why we're talking about certain things. It's [00:29:00] just like if your child does something and you take away their cell phone. Without telling them why they're going to get upset and angry. , or you want to put privacy settings on, on your child's device without telling them why The why calms everyone down, and it gives good reasoning.
Now, my other, the other part is, yes, we have to talk about, , the abuses that happen online, the cyberbullying, the exploitation, the privacy. Um, but we also have to talk to our adults and our parents about, , what to do as your child is growing up, um, and what to do before you even give them a device.
Kristi: Yeah,
Carol: right. The education has to go to the parents. , and I'm not shaming parents, but seven and eight year olds don't need their own device. Family devices where mom and dad and or caregivers can have [00:30:00] access. But kids don't need their own devices because those devices are computers. And I think that's, that's part of the unawareness is that, oh, yeah, they can take pictures, they can get on these apps, they can, but it's a full blown computer that you carry around in your pocket.
Right? And that everyone can, can have access to you. And so, oftentimes when I go and I talk to school aged kids, and I say to them, so if you're home and someone knocks on your door, um, are you going to let that person in? And the first answer is no, right? I don't know that person. It's a strange person.
Why would I let them into my house? Well, why not? Like, just invite them in and have some hot chocolate or, right? , and they still say no. And I, and then it's like, okay, so you're on your device and you're talking [00:31:00] to whomever on TikTok or Snapchat or Instagram through messaging, right? Okay. And you're letting them into your bedroom, you're letting them into your kitchen, because because all of a sudden everything is open.
And then you see this little light bulb go on, right, that there is, there is no difference when you don't know somebody, don't let them into your life.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: Whether it's through a screen or through your front door. There has to be maybe analogies is the way that we teach parents to talk to their kids with.
Kristi: Yeah, and whilst you were saying all that, I was thinking like, at the moment, Taylor Swift is in Australia, right? It's like throwing your kid into the middle of a 96, 000 person stadium with 96, 000 other people. Putting your kid in the middle of it and leaving them there. Cause really that is what it's like being on the internet.
You have [00:32:00] access to billions of people, good, bad, and ugly doesn't matter. They're all, there's billions of people on the internet. Uh, you know, it doesn't matter which demographic you come from. Everyone in the world almost has a phone and, um, a device, not almost, not everyone, but almost. And so, you know, throwing your kid into that environment with no safety, no supervision, no awareness.
It's, it's, it's trouble.
Carol: There are 3. 96 billion people on social media every day.
Kristi: That's, yeah. Right?
Carol: And, and all it takes is one to come knocking on your screen. Yeah. Right? And, and you're, and our kids are fish in a, in a big goldfish pond. And some kids are, are, have, some kids have the cognizance to ignore, right?
But [00:33:00] some kids, because they're social beings. And what is, if you ask a child, what is the one thing that you love about your device and about using social media or whatever? And they'll say, talking to other people.
Kristi: Yeah. It's because, unfortunately, they're seeking connection.
Carol: And unfortunately, we don't know who's connecting.
Kristi: Exactly. Uh, I mean, my daughter, you know, you talking about Amanda, you know, gave me chills because obviously my daughter's a teenager at the moment and she's, you know, we've had a few rough times. Uh, you know, some, there's been some cyberbullying, there's even, you know, there's been, and all that I know, and all that I've told her, and all that we've had, you know, all the conversations, and all the supervision, you know, there has been a few people try to, um, you know, get her to send nudes, they've tried to, she's had strangers pop up on her Snapchat, you know, all of the things, [00:34:00] and only through um, Only through the fact that I have always talked about this stuff from a very young age from I think from about seven or eight that we started talking about stranger danger online and and that there's people and I didn't shy away from those conversations because I knew what I knew from my job right and you know I'm sure that if Amanda hadn't known more because at the time you didn't know what we know now but you know now we know I mean back in 2008 When Amanda got online or around 2009, my daughter was just born and I remember, you know, joining the police in 2010 and it was only just starting to become a problem.
Like, you know, predators go where children are and they'll find them. They'll find them wherever they can find them. Right. So, you know, the thing is, is that it, you know, it's of no fault of anyone's that we didn't know better, but we know better now and we got to do better now.
Carol: Well, the other important [00:35:00] thing is that.
As parents and caregivers, we have to have the conversations and listen to our kids, right? And we have to encourage our kids to be able to come, come back to mom and dad, auntie, uncle, grandma, caregivers, one of my main focuses this year is identifying red flags the red flags for bullying, cyberbullying, exploitations, extortion, you name it, right?
And making these kids, making kids and parents aware of the red flags.
Tina: Quickly interrupting this episode to let you know that Christie has a whole library full of resources to support you. If this podcast hits home for you and you want to learn more about cyber safety, abuse awareness and prevention, and how you can protect your children, head to the link in the show notes where you can access free downloads, informative guides, [00:36:00] and courses relating to these topics.
You can also order Christie's book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. If you want to join the fight against child sexual abuse, you can support Chrissy to reach a wider audience by leaving a review on this podcast or sharing it with your community.
Carol: if we talk about the red flag, and identify the red flag, and kids know about the red flags, when something happens And, uh, a recognition appears in their brain of a red flag. That's when we say, stop, block, and tell a, tell an adult,
Kristi: right?
Carol: Um, and so that's why it's really important that, , those red flags are talked about a lot.
Because kids don't know. They don't know when they're younger or older or, and, and predators are smart, right? They'll ask [00:37:00] something in a way that, Doesn't appear to be, um, breaching privacy or luring or grooming. But we have to give kids scenarios so that they are more aware of these.
Kristi: Yeah, I agree.
Scenario. I mean, I did it as a police officer. Scenario training was how we learned how to do things that we wouldn't, we might come across when it happens in the real world. And really it's just preparing you for the potentiality or the possibility of something.
Carol: And, and scenario playing have, we, we do that with our kids when they're old enough to walk and talk.
Right. Um, when, when we are teaching them how to walk across the street, We tell them to look both ways, listen for the cars, or if they're walking in a parking lot, look for the lights, all those things, but we aren't doing that enough when it comes to technology [00:38:00] use in the digital world. Yeah, with our kids.
Kristi: I wonder if it's because parents are scared of like scaring their children. And from my experience, it's actually not scary for kids. What is scary is not knowing how to deal with something once it happens. So if they had the knowledge of how to deal with something, or like, was able to identify the red flags of something before it got to that stage, they'd be like, Oh, yeah, I remember that and they would do what they were taught to do and it's happened to my own daughter So I know it works by talking through these scenarios and going well This is what you need to watch out for and this is what happens or what could you do if this happened?
Giving them an opportunity to work it out and then helping them guiding them through it And then when it does happen, they're so proud of themselves. They're like guess what? I just got Was someone was trying to groom me and I blocked them and you know, and you're like, well done that it's actually happened to my daughter was like, there was a, there was someone trying to groom me online mom and I blocked them and I was like, Oh, [00:39:00] well done, you know, and I wasn't, it wasn't scary for either of us because I knew that I'd given her the tools and that's all it comes down to is giving you kids the tools
Carol: and for adults is becoming comfortable with the conversation that's going to happen.
I mean, we talked to our kids about safe sex. Right? We talk to our kids about, well, we should, we should be talking to our kids when they become a certain age about, um, drinking
Kristi: and
Carol: what they, what they shouldn't, and drugs, right? And those conversations happen a lot more than the online safety conversations.
Maybe because it's, it's, it can be invisible at first.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: Right? Um, because when you talk to kids about drinking and driving, we have no qualms about saying what can happen. You'll get in a car accident. You could, you know, lose the use of your limbs. You could die. [00:40:00]
Kristi: Well, there's so much education around, you know, You've got to put your seatbelt on.
You've got to do this. You've got to, we don't throw our kids in a pool and say sink or swim. We got, we teach them how to swim. We give them supervision because we know they'll drown. And it's the same with the internet. They'll drown if they don't have it. Um, so tell me about that. Oh, I think because, I think because We have become so reliant on technology and it's now become a, and not no shame, blame or anything on shade on parents.
But, um, you know, technology has become a babysitter as well. And so we, it's so easy for us to just hand over a device to keep our kids safe. You know, as young as one or two or three years old and keep them entertained while we're busy, that, you know, the consideration of, of that safety, it's, it hasn't started when they're that age.
So then it all of a sudden has run away from parents and run away from them. [00:41:00] And then all of a sudden they're at, you know, 10, 11, 12, they've seen porn for the first time. They're, they're dealing with problems that they've never, they didn't even consider because they hadn't had. Like it's just happened to them, whereas being proactive and having those conversations and having that awareness from a very young age, I think there's a shift, but it's not fast enough.
And then we've also got a problem. I guess it's a challenge or a problem. We've now got a bunch of parents. That were the first kids with phones and devices. And so they grew up with sharing everything online. I mean, if Amanda was still with us today, she would have been one of those parents. And so, you know, growing up, sharing their whole lives with everyone.
So now they're sharing their whole kids lives online. And
Carol: did you see the article that came out of the New York times yesterday? No,
Kristi: tell me about it.
Carol: It's called mum [00:42:00] influencers.
Kristi: Yes, and what they've
Carol: done is they've, their children's lives online since babyhood.
Kristi: Yeah,
Carol: which is so wrong. I'll try to get the article to share it with you.
There, it, the article shared the good and the bad. And so there were some mom influencers who have decided to take their kids online. Totally off or they won't show the faces of their kids. There was a story there that, um, there were like boxes. They didn't show the pictures, but they showed, they described the pictures moms were putting up there.
And some were of their nine year old daughter in a gold bikini. The end. Um, Daughters doing the splits during dancing or gymnastics, , and then all the comments that came under it. How is that
Kristi: not trafficking in a way? Like how is that not exploitation of your own [00:43:00] children?
Carol: That is exploitation in my mind when I thought of it.
Right. It is. There was a story of, um, it was in the daughter's perspective, the mother was talking and talking about her daughter and she had put her daughter's pictures up and videos all through her daughter's life. And it, it gave, when the daughter figured all this out, didn't, it gave the daughter less worth.
And so now daughter is on OnlyFans. exploiting herself.
Kristi: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's not going to happen to every child, but that's a potentiality. And, , one of the things that I would like to point out about this, we're talking about public accounts, not private accounts and, and that these mum influencers, they're using their children to basically cash in.
And, um, I do know some accounts where they have subscriptions where people can [00:44:00] subscribe and get subscriptions. Special content and, and, , one of the things that I'm sure you might've had this as well, Carol, when you're talking to young kids, one of the things that I have found when I'm in classrooms and recently, just last month, a couple of weeks ago, I had some young people say to me, my parents share photos online and I don't want them to.
And because, because our young kids are getting digital literacy from much younger age, like from, from the minute, from the get go, from, and we talk about consent and we talk about, you know, that it's there forever and, you know, people can use your photos if you share it and you don't, you know, you don't have any control once it's on the internet.
That's what we're talking to our kids about. So then they find out that their mums and dads are sharing photos of them online and they're very upset about it. I don't know about you, but I have had kids who said, how do I stop my mom and dad? They don't listen to me. I have you had any of the kids come to you about that sort of stuff?
Yeah,
Carol: I thought you would. Yes, it's [00:45:00] happening up here. It, they're the kids, the students, young people, they're getting, they're getting taught about media literacy and digital literacy and privacy and consent and exploitation. Right. Um, And they're a more aware generation. I, I truly believe that they will be a different kind of parent in, in 15, 20 years from now than maybe the generation right now that are sharing everything because those, yeah, those adults with the seven, eight, seven to 15 year olds, right?
They lived, this was their life, social media and, and oversharing. And I guess you become so ingrained. You don't, you still don't think it's bad unless something bad happens.
Kristi: Yes. Agreed. Yeah. And, and [00:46:00] so one of the things that I like to talk to parents about is just what the impact can be on your kids if you overshare their information, you know, the impact on their future, because for instance, you know, now we have such a massive thing with, um, AI and the, the article, you know, people are exploiting children's images.
Sorry, that's my dog sitting in my office. I saw. I saw Very cute. Um, yeah, so they're exploiting children's images and they're taking pictures from the Internet, from people's Instagram from And what parent I don't think any parent gives birth to a child and thinks, I will I don't care what happens to their, them in the future, like, you know, that you let most parents give birth to their kids.
They love them from birth. They want them to grow up healthy, strong and happy and, and have their own futures. So as parents, we need to have a little bit of a thing can go. How do we [00:47:00] make that happen in this current digital environment where everything we do is online? And I think as a police officer, I was very like, I guess everything I did was potentially, you know, I was very aware of that from very, yeah, from my daughter's young age, because I was, she was two when I joined.
Everything I did as a police officer, because I was wearing a uniform or I was wearing some sort of badge or whatever, was seen in the public eye and I had to always behave and act in a certain way. So I would never do anything like that. But there's certainly, you know, my daughter was 2008. There's certainly photos that I wish I'd never posted of her back, you know, when she was very young, when I didn't know better.
I mean, and it's not until you know better, then you can do better. So I have to give myself some grace and say, it's okay, Christy, you didn't know better back then. But now we know better and I don't share any photos of my daughter in any public way anymore. She's 16 now and she gets to choose whether she gets her photo shared or not.
But it's again about consent, right? So [00:48:00] we talk about consent with our kids and we should be talking about it in our families as well.
Carol: Oh, 100%, right? The consent word is, can, can travel in all different areas and We do need to get into practice of asking and kids need to be asking each other, they can share photos and with the AI and the deep fakes.
It's just, there's a whole, there's a whole other sector to learn about. Right. And I think that, um, with AI being, it's been a year and a few months, right, that it has really caught on out there, but the offenders out there. Right. Are 10 steps ahead of us in terms of what they're doing, right? And we can't get all of them.
And I know that in Canada, they're going to table next week, a online harms. Bill, , [00:49:00] whether it will pass in the tabling because the opposition doesn't like it, , we don't know, but Australia and the UK and the EU were listed as countries that already have something in place, , and have gone through, um, a few readings, like a few changes as it, like you consider it a living, a living document bill, right?
, yeah. And Canada hasn't even got one yet, but one of my biggest fears is that when we have those in place, I don't want parents to think that their children are 100 percent safe. No, there won't be. Just because there's legislation. All the other stuff still needs to happen. The conversations, the learning, the teaching, the, the, and, and as technology continues to, what we know today, [00:50:00] Next weekend, there'll be changes, there'll be advancements, there'll be new ways for offenders to find their kids.
We always have to keep up with, um, what's out there, and it's a daunting, exhausting task. It is.
Kristi: It is. But that's why you follow people like us. You're keeping, you know, you just got to keep your thumb on the pulse whilst your kids, your kids are only young for a certain amount of time, right? I don't know.
I know that it's exhausting because I, I've been there, I've done that, but it's also worth it because when your kids come out the other side of it and they, you know, they, they managed to get there and unfortunately, you know, not all kids managed to get there and we just want them to get there.
Carol: Well, you know, another thing that I've been finding out so last December, I was able to, I was invited to go to Nick Nick in Virginia.
Right. And I was able to speak to the board of [00:51:00] directors. And I also found out, like there's the fear of missing out our generation is, is for the adults are fearful of missing out and doom scrolling right finding out what other people are doing and but yeah, All the doomscrolling creating mental health is creating, um, the, I guess, anxiety, , why can't I be like that or how come they're on vacation or, or whatever.
But there's another part that's called the joy of missing out, Jomo. And when I, yes, you can just Google it. It's a thing. And there's kids now, young, young adults and teens that. want to Jomo, they're, they're happy to miss out. They're turning off their social media, they're turning off your notification, because they have realized they need a break [00:52:00] that their own because we're talking about mental health more.
And we're talking about anxiety more, right. And we're talking about sleep deprivation, we're talking about not eating healthy, we're talking about all those other kinds of things. And now it's all Sort of coming together for the younger generation.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: And so we only hope that They are more able to to turn off.
Kristi: Well, hopefully it balances itself out eventually Like hopefully that the amount of education and awareness that our young people have that then it'll balance itself out with help from adults and parents and and so schools and all of the support networks, you know, hopefully, but just for anyone who was wondering what NECMEC means, it's the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children over in the US.
Is that right?
Carol: Yes, it
Kristi: is. Yeah. And they're amazing in what they do. Um, they've got a cyber tip [00:53:00] line that you can actually report child exploitation on. , They do filter things through to other places, but, , you know, in Australia, we obviously have our own, um, reporting lines, but for anyone listening overseas, because I do have some overseas listeners, , NECMEC is one of the ones, and it's a cyber tip line that you can, send stuff to, but it's interesting because that JOMO stuff, like I know about FOMO, but JOMO, so one of the things my daughter actually mentioned to me was, , She goes, Mom, kids don't want to get together anymore.
They don't want to spend time actually in the same room together. She's like, she's like, I feel like our generation's screwed because we don't like each other. And I'm like, I think it's actually more about the fact that you don't know how to be and how to interact together. And it's easy to interact online for you.
And that's where I feel that it's really important. And for anyone with young children who are, you know, trying to, trying to navigate this [00:54:00] new world of, you know, children devices, you know, do I get a device? Don't they need to make friends in real life first and they need to learn how to interact with other kids.
So by giving them a device and letting them game, and yes, there is so much, my daughter has found so much joy from gaming and I've seen, and I've played, I've online games with her. We need to help them navigate, like have some balance. So as much time as they spend online, they need to be offline doing things like running around outside, I'm talking kids under the age of 12 by the way, you know, running around outside, playing, you know, learning, being bored, so that they can, we need to have a little bit of balance.
Oh,
Carol: that's a conversation. Because kids. Do not know how to unbore themselves that that's like the buzzword on board and then oh, we'll go and
Kristi: Go
Carol: on your Xbox, right? But you know what we need to we need to how many kids young kids know [00:55:00] Hopscotch, or um, foursquare, or skipping, or even the Chinese, the skipping with the elastic band.
Right? Elastics. Things that, I mean, I'm way older than you, but.
Kristi: No, I had all those things. Yeah, I had all those things. You know, even like playing pool or ping pong tables or, you know, any of those old school, you know, games that we used to play around with family and cousins and friends and, you know, all of those things.
Carol: Monopoly, playing the game of life, like board games. I still play board games with my family. And, and that's one of the recommended things for family time is like, Sure, you can watch a movie, right, but, but get out of, now we have to call them old fashioned board games, right? But it, it brings conversation, it brings laughter, it brings, and, and put all the technology away.
You can't play a board game with, with technology at the table, right? [00:56:00] Um, having dinner time, having a meal time without technology at the table, right? We have to, it's sad, but we have to create those. Moments. Moments. Kinds of moments now. Yeah. Have you ever seen, like when you go to a restaurant and you see a family of four and they're all hunched over looking at their screens?
At a, yeah, I was at a restaurant and there was a mom and two kids and the two kids were on their devices and mom was just eating her meal. So I think
Kristi: on our own. Yeah, I do that. And so when I go with my family and I have to my husband and my daughter both have ADHD. So they, you know, their brains work differently.
So we tend to put our phones away or leave them in the car or just say like, Everyone's phones away. We're having dinner and it's a, it's a conscious effort. We have to make a conscious effort cause it's so easy to just pick your phone up and just start scrolling and checking your messages and, [00:57:00] and stuff.
And, , you know, so I, um, I totally understand that, but one of the things I would like to say, and I'm sure you'll agree, , is that my own daughter, I restricted social media until she was in high school after, you know, We, and we did the work, we talked about it. She had to do a project where she talked about the app she wanted, which was TikTok at the time.
Kristi: And she had to tell me the pros and cons, and she had to say, you know, what, what, how long she was allowed to use it for. And she had to come up with this whole project and present it to me and my husband. And, and I did that because, purely because. If she really wanted it and she did the work, then she would have learned something.
And she also would, she would understand the repercussions of what these things are. So that wasn't until she was 13, 12, 12 and a half, 13. And, um, it's only recently she said to me, mom, I'm so glad that you didn't let me have social media earlier. And she's 16. So for her to come back to me and say, it's okay.
I'm glad that you made me wait. I [00:58:00] hated you at the time because everyone else had it, but I really, I really am glad because I had more of a childhood. So for any parents out there that are struggling with their eight, nine, 10 year old or 12 year old, who are like, they're ready for, they want social media because everyone else seems to have it.
It's okay to have your own rules in your own house and to stand fast in your beliefs. and let your kids have a childhood because they will thank you for it because once they're on it they either go one of two ways they go down that FOMO or they go down that JOMO you know so yeah please please know that you can take the time out and say no explain why you're saying no explain the reasons and then you know try and find ways to do it so that you can all enjoy it
Carol: and Parents also need to understand or they can share with their child, right?
So when you're getting a device for your child, that device still belongs to the adult. Yes. Right? And anything that [00:59:00] transpires on that device, it becomes the adult's responsibility, right? So if it's nefarious, who are the, whose law enforcement going to talk to? They're going to talk to the parents because that's who really owns the device.
And so my, one of my things. My suggestions is like, if, if you're going to give a device to, um, someone who's younger than 12, right? It's a family device.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: And so with a family device, um, mom and dad have access to it. If there's something, if your child is saying, no, you can't look, then there's something obviously there that should be looked at.
So, you have to look at those, that red flag.
Kristi: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, just before we get, just before we finish, you mentioned the red flags and I'm sure the parents listening would be like, oh, what were the red flags? So, and I know there's lots of red flags, but what are the [01:00:00] main red flags that you see or you know of?
When it comes to sextortion or bullying or, I mean, there must be pretty similar in some ways because it all involves technology and it's probably technology related. So what are some of the red flags that you teach parents?
Carol: Well, the red flags are like the bullying, the cyber bullying are a bit different because it comes to knowing your child and, and your child's, regular behaviors, right?
And so if you see changes in your child's personality, this is with bullying and cyberbullying, whether, um, all of a sudden they're, they're hyperactive or, or not active enough, right? They're sleeping, they're sleeping too long or not sleeping enough. They're eating too much or not eating enough. Um, they're irritable, they're argumentative, just changes in behavior.
Then, you know, something's happening. And then [01:01:00] it's time to have that conversation with the exploitation and sextortion, sort of the same baseline behaviors because the anxiety and comes into play, um, the fear, the fearfulness, because usually if there's exploitation happening, the exploiter will say, you can't tell your, your adults, right, your parents, or else I'm going to hurt them.
I'm going to find your house, and I'm going to hurt them and parent and the kids get scared, right, or embarrassed. I know many kids that have have self harmed because they, they are they wanting to hurt themselves, and not hurt others. The adults around them. Yeah, they're trying to protect the adults. And then, and then with exploitation and grooming, there's grooming, there's luring, there's the love bombing, the, the offender at the other end is saying how much they care about this [01:02:00] person, they want to meet this person, um, that, that the gifting, they're gifting, , If the child is on Roblox, they're giving Robux and things like that.
So that's part of the learning and the trust process. Um, you know, one of the things a parent can do is if you want to know what the red flags for exploitation are or for cyberbullying, go on chat GPT. I'm actually saying go on AI and type in the question, what are the red flags for exploitation? And it will come up with 15 of them.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: Okay.
Kristi: That's good. Good tool. Thank you.
Carol: Yeah. Well, you know what? It's using the tool for good and it's using the tool to learn. Um, there are, as I said, there's, there's good sides and there's bad sides. When the internet was created and I remember back in the day, cause I'm older, right? It was. It [01:03:00] was attached to my phone landline and if you picked up the receiver of the phone, your internet dropped.
Yes, I'm older, I'm that old too. And so look where we've gone in 30 years. And, and so where are we going to go in the next, I won't be around for the next like 30. Anyways, where, what will happen in the next 20 years? And so,
Kristi: yeah,
Carol: we, we sort of have to, we have to deal with the now and keep our kids safe. Um, and, and keeping the kids safe, it's keeping families safe, but our kids are the next generation of leaders.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: And we want them to, to go into young adulthood. Um, we want them to get into young adulthood, but without the fear of not getting into university or college or getting a job because of what. Has been shared with about them on the Internet, or what they've shared on the Internet or [01:04:00] what their parents have shared about them on the Internet.
It only takes a couple of comments and recruiters for jobs and recruiters for post secondary are going and looking on the Internet now and it doesn't matter if your accounts private, because once someone hashtags you or tags you. It doesn't matter if your accounts private, because once someone hashtags you or tags you.
It can go into the global cyber cyber sphere, right, or for all to see so just because, say your Facebook or your account locked to private doesn't keep you safe, because we've all learned how to screen capture.
Kristi: Yeah, so very true. I think that's a good place to wind up. My last question though is, um, is, you know, after everything that you've been through, um, you know, it's been a long 11 years for you and your family and you've turned something, [01:05:00] a tragedy into something that is helping.
Well, Amanda did. Amanda did this and you just helped. uh, keep the flame alive and, and, and share her legacy. So what, what would you, after everything, what would you like parents to know that you, that you know now?
Carol: Well, one, give your kids huge hugs and huge kisses, right? And, and tell them that you care about them from the time they were born to the time that, as they grow older.
And you will always be there for them and to have those honest conversations. Um, and some of them might be hard, but they are very much needed. Um, and to share with kids that they can come to you as a trusted adult, as a parent, as a caregiver. Anytime. Yeah. Right. If they need help, doesn't even have to be [01:06:00] online related.
It can be anything related. Right. And to build that relationship. , We'll have them, we'll keep them safer. We'll, it will make them, , adults in this world that, that can thrive. Right? , cause we have to thrive and survive. And we have to be, , more resilient. Um, and, and part of that resiliency is, is part of.
I guess the learning that has to happen. I know that, you know, the human brain doesn't fully develop until, um, 20, 25 to 28 years old. And so when you put that into perspective and we're, we're putting technology in the hands of 13 year olds, the brains only have to develop. Yeah. And that's developing to logical thinking, critical thinking, rational thinking.
Um, [01:07:00] we have to, we have to really. Like, think deep about that. We also have to make sure that we talk to our kids about respect, about empathy, about their moral compass, about right or wrong, because I think we're forgetting about all that stuff, especially when it comes to the bullying and the cyberbullying, and how to deal with it if it comes directly at you.
Um, we don't know what the life of the person who is. dishing out the, the hate, the words, the, the bullying and the cyber bullying. We don't know what's going on in their life. Right? And so we have to really think about that empathetically, , before we attack back. Yeah. Yeah. Good, good points. And in the old days, right?
You just drop it and [01:08:00] you, and you go home, you just drop it. And then, and if it continues, you have your safe and trusted adults.
Kristi: Yeah. And what I'd like to add to that is that, you know, when they're little, you have to hug them. You have to, you, you protect them from the world. And just because they get to 13 or 12 and they're at that, you still have to put, protect them from the world.
Um, you know, and that, unfortunately that world is now in encompassing in a little tiny device. But what we need to remember is that they're not, they're not yet got their shields and their, and their, , and their barriers and their force fields up here. So we need to help them by protecting them. And one of the conversations I always had and still have with my daughter is some things are for adults to deal with and bullying and cyber bullying and sextortion or anything like that is for an adult to help you with because you haven't got the tools yet to deal with it on your own.
And, um, I think that's, I'm going to
Carol: send you some, I'm going to send you some [01:09:00] links of some really short, good virtue video clips.
Kristi: Yeah, cool.
Carol: And, and what it does, it just, it makes, but it makes your heart feel all warm and fuzzy.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: Right. And that's what we need is in a world of, when you turn on your computer and you see the news, I mean, the news is made to be all bad and negative.
You don't see very many warm and fuzzy stories, but we need to embrace the warm and fuzzy Videos and stories out there. Yes.
Kristi: That's what we do. We need both. We need both. We need the reality, but we need the escapism as well. So yeah, I'll add them to the, the bottom of the podcast, , in the podcast show notes, but Carol, thank you so much.
So how can people, I know that we've mentioned it, go on to, , amandatoddlegacy. org. Uh, that's where you can look at, look up Amanda's video, um, and you can see it's eight and a half [01:10:00] minutes. It's her own video that she created before she, before she passed and, , you know, it's really, it is a very impactful video.
It's been played how many times now?
Carol: About 50 million cumulatives.
Kristi: Yeah.
Carol: Right? So people had copied it and put it on, and we've, we've been able to get them all down, right? Because we don't want anyone, um, making a monetary gain from Amanda's story. , and then the website, the Legacy website always also has resources, right?
Yeah. Resources for cyberbullying, resources for exploitation, um, support lines for mental health. And I decided not to just put resources for Canada. So I put. Global resources.
Kristi: Fantastic. And thank you so, so much for talking to us. And I would really highly recommend any parents out there to have a look at Amanda's video and maybe have a talk with your kids [01:11:00] about Amanda's story, because it is an impactful story.
And as you've shared with us, kids are listening. Because it's a real story and they can relate to what happened. So it's going to have more impact than maybe talking about the boogeyman and saying, don't do this because strangers, it's an actual real story that has the real. a real impact on kids and, and, and it could make a difference.
So thank you so much, Carol. And, um, I really am so grateful for you taking your time out of your Saturday afternoon to jump on and have a chat with me.
Carol: Thank you for having me. I hope that one day we can meet in person again.
Kristi: Well, maybe I'll come and visit you in Canada. Oh
Carol: yeah. Yeah, please do. I have a bedroom for you to stay in.
Kristi: That would be fantastic. All right. See ya.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education [01:12:00] prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a signed copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
