Kate Ratson podcast interview
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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Kristi: Welcome back to the Kate podcast, the child abuse [00:01:00] prevention and education podcast. We were just laughing, Kate and I, because, , we were talking about brain fog and, uh, I can't even say my podcast name at the very beginning, but anyway, we'll get here. I'm with the wonderful Kate Raston today. Hope I've said that right, Kate.
Um, I met Kate at the growing and growing development, healthy relationships. seminar, , last year, or was it early this year? Last year. It's late
Kate: last year. Yeah.
Kristi: It's kind of like the time's flying. And, , I went to and saw Kate and her co founder of We Are Women, uh, present about consent. And I was super excited to hear how you did, how you guys did it and just what your mission is.
So without, without further ado, , butchering and sharing more about UK, I think you can tell everyone who you are, what you're doing and what your mission is. And let's go from there.
Kate: Yeah, excellent. Yeah. So thank you for my introduction. My name's Kate Raston. Um, yeah. And I'm the co founder of We Are Women.
So We Are [00:02:00] Women, basically our slogan is turning silence into open dialogue. And what we are about is empowering young people to have healthy, confident and consensual relationships. And we do this through delivering evidence based, relevant and trauma informed education that they can relate to. Yeah.
I'll give you some information, I guess, on our mission and our vision and our values because I definitely feel like as an organization, they really drive what we're doing. So, our vision as an organization is a world where everyone can have healthy, confident, and consensual relationships. And our mission is to give young people the sex education that we wish we had to make sure that they never go through what we did.
, our values as an organization. Now we've got quite a few, so I'll pick my favorites. Um, but the one that I am, I guess, most proud of, and I guess I'm going to give a specific content warning or swear word warning, That biggest value is no bullshit. , I think this is so important as an organization that we do what we say we're going to do.
We're not going to skirt around the [00:03:00] topics. We're going to get deep into the nitty gritty of what we're actually trying to achieve. , and what we're actually talking about when we're having conversations with young people. Um, another one that I'm really proud of is boldness. , we're very, we say what needs to be said and.
Um, I think, you know, an example is,, sometimes people will talk about teaching abstinence and we're never going to teach abstinence in any scenario because we know that's not proven to, to work. , and the last thing is evidence is where all evidence driven, , everything needs to be backed up by research.
Um, so that's definitely something that we, that we stand by.
Kristi: That's amazing. Yeah, I'm with you. And don't worry about swearing on this podcast. We, it, it just happens. And, um, but the no bullshit thing and the boldness, definitely it needs to happen in this environment where we've hidden away from all of these Like all of these topics and all of these conversations for too long.
Kate: Yep. I completely agree. I think, um, I think we're at a point now, , you know, in society where people want [00:04:00] to actively talk about these topics and remove a lot of the taboos around them. And particularly when, when we're dealing with young people, they're crying out for explicit education that doesn't use any metaphors or You know, you know, we're talking about, we're talking about consent, like the, the milkshake video that came out from the government or the tea video.
, I mean, the tea one's great, but they want to actually talk about it and use real life examples. So, , we stand by no bullshit, call it what it is. Let's have a conversation.
Kristi: Yeah. And your mission is so important because, and it's, it's been a long time coming, right? I remember my, I was just, because I knew we were talking today.
All of my memories of my own sex education popped up in my mind. Yeah. And I remember in year 10, so 15 sitting in a theater where they showed pictures of gonorrhea and, uh, syphilis and all of these horrible STDs or STIs that they're called [00:05:00] now, back when I was 15, you know, half my class, maybe even more than that, was already having sex and Oh, yeah.
And we all just like groaned and groaned, but it didn't stop anyone. And so, so that's not what healthy relationships is about. No one ever talked to us about consent. No one ever talked to us about healthy relationships. You know, , and all of the aspects that go into having a healthy relationship and healthy sex.
And safe sex. So yeah, I feel
Kate: like, um, you know, there was a lot of tick also when I was at school, I mean, my experience, I think I blocked it out. Like trauma blocked it out. Cause I don't really remember getting anything. I think I watched a video on, , a sperm swimming to an egg and that's all that I remember.
, but I think there was so much emphasis back then on scare tactics, scaring young people about STIs, STDs, whatever they were called back then. Yeah. Pregnancy, , which. We know that doesn't work. Young people are still going to do that. Still going to do that stuff anyway. So how can we make it safer for them?
How can we make [00:06:00] it shame free? And how can we give them the space to talk about these issues? I always think about, you know, there's been a lot of damage done with scare tactics with STIs. And so now when people get an STI, which is a very normal thing, it happens. Um, there's so much shame associated with that, that they don't go and get help or they don't openly talk about it.
, and there is nothing, you know, shameful about having an STI. That's, you know, , obviously you need to go and get it treated. , but also when we think about STIs that live with someone for life, when we put so much shame on something that. You know, then this person has to live with that for life. I can't imagine how that would feel.
So I think, you know, one of our underpinning theories as, as a, um, organization that we stand by is sex positivity. And, you know, that means, , not necessarily. You know, encouraging kids to have lots of sex, but it's actually about talking openly about sex, making it shame free, so that, you know, when push comes to shove, they feel confident in it, or they feel comfortable in talking about it, or they feel confident getting [00:07:00] help.
And I think sex positivity is so great in breaking down barriers, removing stigma. , also I think it's really great in moving a lot of, , like societal gender expectations as well, particularly for women.
Kristi: Yeah. Bye bye. I've got a teenage daughter and we've been talking about these types of topics since she was, well, since she knew what sex was at eight.
, you know, she knew what pornography was at 10, you know, consent, masturbation. I've been having these conversations before she hit high school. But I will admit, and this is me being just openly honest with everyone listening, It's really hard to break down what the shame and the, the fear and all of the, the crap that comes from the education I got.
So, you know, my daughter who is a very healthy, happy young person, she, you know, does her best. She's, she's in a relationship. Even though I've been sex positive, I get icked out and I get [00:08:00] like embarrassed. And even though I'm a positive, like I'm trying to change that stigma and it really pisses me off that I have that like, it's, it's like this umbrella or this, this hat that we wear and as parents, and I can understand why parents are scared or, um, struggle to talk about it because we were carrying a lot of shame from previous generations that have been put on us.
Absolutely.
Kate: Yeah. And you know, , I even feel that too. And so my undergrad was in public health, health promotion, and my post grad that I'm just about to finish is in sexology. And even me that is so passionate about teaching sex ed that studies sex, I still have those same feelings of, I guess it's those, , internalized sort of, Biases and also the society that we've been brought up with is, is you're brought up in this society where it's not okay to talk about this stuff or be like communicating in that way that, you know, when I, sometimes I have these moments where I [00:09:00] sort of feel a bit uneasy about what I'm going to say, or I have this fear that I'm going to make other people feel.
Um, but what I have learned is the more that I have these conversations and the more open and honest I am, the easier that it gets, but I also think it's okay to recognize and to point out the uncomfortability of it all, particularly as a parent, having conversations around consent or healthy relationships or sex with your child.
I think it's okay to acknowledge that you also. I feel a bit uneasy about it because that humanizes the experience, you know?
Kristi: Yeah. Well, and I've had to go back after I've said something, go, look, that's not how I wanted to handle that. I'm so sorry. Like I didn't handle that well. That's on me. Not on you.
Don't take my, this on like, and my daughter's like, yeah, like, why are you being like this? You know? And so she's called me out on it. And that's because she feels safe enough to do it. I think one of the things that I have sort of grown up thinking with my own daughter is that, how do I want [00:10:00] my daughter to feel about this stuff?
Like, I don't want her to feel the shame and the fear and the stigma around it that I felt. So I, I've been trying to undo that. It still pops its head up. So, um, you know, I think for parents, , you know, it's really important that we, we have a look at our own values and what we've been, what's ours and what's.
Someone else's, you know, in life as well.
Kate: Yeah, I completely agree. , and I think also as a parent, it's important to recognize that times are really different right now. Things have changed dramatically for young people, you know, just from me working with them. And so I'm 29 now and I, some of the stuff that they do so early, I'm shocked by, , but I think to recognize that it is very different and they have got social media.
And so. They're online. Young kids are seeing porn from a really, really early age. And if they're not, you know, out there actively searching for porn, it is popping up on TikTok, Instagram, on gaming apps, Facebook, YouTube video. At high school, it's embedded into everything. If they haven't searched [00:11:00] for it, someone's probably showed it to them.
Kristi: So I think
Kate: there's a lot of, you know, You know, things that you need to recognize has changed for young people. And definitely social media is one of them, including porn, but also things like sexting is going on. You know, young black teenagers are mostly are on Snapchat. And if they say they're not, they probably are.
Um, and you know, a lot of them, a lot of those first sexual experience is actually sexting. Whereas, you know, For maybe myself on years older, it might've been a kiss. And then that led to something else, like physically one on one, but now it's, it's online and they're sexting. So I think to recognize that even as comfortable as it is to know that your child might be doing these things, , not addressing them face on or, , saying to them, no, they can't do that is only going to lead to them doing it.
Sooner more often and in a less, less safe as well, less safe, not as safe, I should say.
Kristi: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, a lot of us went off and like went [00:12:00] in to the park and made out or did silly things, you know, at a party or in a very unsafe environment where, , you know, I think for me personally, I want my daughter to feel, be safe.
And to make safe choices and you can't make safe choices if you don't have all the information. So exactly
Kate: right. I think, you know, we're talking about a harm minimization approach, which for us, that looks like acknowledging young kids are going to do it anyway. So how can we give them the right information to do it in a safer way?
And you know, if we're talking, for example, about pornography and acknowledging that unfortunately young kids. Teenagers are going to see it. Um, is that, how can we have a conversation with our young person around when they are saying it, how to critically think about what they're viewing and interpret what they're seeing as well.
Like any movie that I say, you're always, you know, you've got to think about how you're interpreting that and critically viewing it. So. When we're talking about porn, I like to get, you know, , young people to think about, okay, is the porn that they're [00:13:00] watching demonstrating consent? Is there any communication going on during this sex that you're watching?
Is there any safe sex? Is there body diversity? Is there, , cultural diversity? You know, is there a lot of violence going on? So just getting them to unpack what they're viewing and then reflect on, is this real sex? For a lot of them, they might never have had sex before, so they don't know what is and isn't real sex.
But I guess as a parent, you can just get them to think about and acknowledge that's actually, that's not real sex. This, what we're viewing is made, you know, it's a, it's made for a viewer, not for an actual life experience.
Kristi: Yeah. Yeah. And, and just breaking it down and like, like you said, you know, just thinking critically and it doesn't have to be about porn.
It can be anything that they're seeing a video, a movie. Uh, you know, I used to, watch movie when I sat and watched a movie with my daughter and if there was a scene, say for instance, even teen drinking, right. And I would sit there and I'd say, How could she have done that? How could [00:14:00] they have done that?
You know, do you think that was a safe thing for to do? How could they have done it safer? What could they do instead? Like, you know, and we used to talk about these things and have these conversations. And I think, what, one thing that we don't probably, uh, as a society haven't done very well is, is make people or ask the questions so that we can think for ourselves.
We're always getting the answers given to us instead of thinking, you know, especially with social media and online world. , so yeah, I, I think that's a brilliant step in, you know, getting your young person to really break down, not just, you know, things in relation to sex, but anything, consent, for instance, can be broken down and can be used in all, all types of things.
So with, with your, um, with your workshops that I saw are very short. version of your workshop. So, and it was, we, we talked about consent and you had us doing some stuff. So talk about what you, what you go and do and share out in, in classrooms and with young [00:15:00] people.
Kate: Yeah. So all of our programs are evidence based, they're all trauma informed, age appropriate, and we use a peer to peer approach.
So meaning the delivery is very From young people themselves. Um, I still deliver, but I feel like I'm at the end of that age bracket of being a peer. , but I'll try live in that, in that age bracket for as long as I can. Anyway, , so basically we have three essentially core programs that we offer as an organization.
So the first one is healthy relationships. The second one is consent. And the third is social media. And we offer these to young women and young boys. We then also have a couple of additional programs that we offer, sort of that don't fall into that core category, which are mental well being and female empowerment.
And those are just for our female students. So basically when we're delivering a workshop, we can go into any setting. So that could be a school that could be a community group. , we even deliver it to parents. We do [00:16:00] across the board, any setting with anyone, um, and we'll do a really hands on approach. So, , all of our workshops are filled with lots of butcher's paper activity.
Conversation starters. , we do values continuum. So get the students to move to from strongly agree to strongly disagree. We read out scenarios and get them to decide what they would do in that scenario. I think when we're delivering all of these workshops, it's about giving the autonomy back to the student to give us their opinion because they can all learn from each other.
Because every, all of the young people have Different opinions, and I think they can learn from each other. So we're really giving them autonomy back to them to open up a conversation. And then we step in and if we need to direct the conversation a certain way, we will or provide extra guidance or drop in, information throughout.
I think it's also really important that our sessions are conversational. And for me, as a facilitator, I'm always listening to what they're saying to try and pick up on things that I can bring up. For [00:17:00] example, you know, when we're, when we're working with high school students, there's still, um, a lot of young people are still using the word slut and they don't know.
I guess the, the background of that word, they also don't know the context that they're using it in. They're just saying that word for the sake of saying that word because everyone's saying it. So whenever I hear that, I always like to ask, you know, Oh, what's your interpretation of that word? What does it mean to you?
How are you using it? And then provide a bit of information on, you know, when we're using that word. We're assuming that women can't have sex with a lot of people. And in doing that, that's a negative thing. And we don't want to, you know, women can have sex with as many people as they want, as long as it's safe.
And we don't, do not need to label them in a negative way. But then I'll also be like, but you know, the current feminist movement is actually trying to reclaim the word slut and make it into a positive light. So. Depends on the context you're using it in, really. , but yeah, I think we're just all about having a conversation, making it feel safe.
, and when we're going into a school, we never want to be perceived as a [00:18:00] teacher. That is not I never want that to happen. So we're just trying to really use language that the kids can relate to.
Kristi: Yeah.
Kate: You know, when we're talking about consent and how we can ask consent, uh, when I get them to write down different ways, they can ask consent.
I want them to write down actual language they're going to use. And some kids will write down what a fuck or DTF or what, because I want them to think about what am I actually going to say? Because there's no point in having them think of something that they never realistically going to use. Cause that helps nobody.
So.
Kristi: And they're not going to use it in the moment either, like, no, so I want
Kate: it to be real to them. Yeah. , and, and how it's going to sit for them and how comfortable they're going to be in saying that. Cause at the end of the day, it's about giving them life skills and learning how to ask consent is a life skill.
Kristi: Oh, a hundred percent. And, and with my background in policing for 10 years and, and. investigating sexual abuse, child sexual abuse. One of the things that I, I'm aware of, and I, and I don't think people are very aware [00:19:00] of is the fact that although we can teach consent and talk about consent till the cows come home, we also need to empower young people to be able to say no and to be comfortable with saying no, because the one thing that, that we, we, I don't know about your upbringing, but in my upbringing, I wasn't allowed to say no to my parents.
I wasn't allowed to say no. You know, I was, do as you're told, not, you know, all of those. And when you go into a school setting, the teacher is the boss. You, you need to listen, listen to the teacher, et cetera. So that the current, um, culture around saying no, being okay with saying no, hasn't really been very well modeled.
And so now we're saying, right, you have the right to say consent, but what if you're a type of kid? Or a type of person that is too scared to say no to people. You're a people pleaser, or you don't have that confidence or whatever. And, and so what I, what I have seen, and I think you even spoke about was the body language [00:20:00] as well, identifying body language is really important because someone might be saying yes, but their body language says no, because they don't know how to say verbally.
No.
Kate: Yeah. So I think that one's a really tricky one because yeah, like you said, if you've bought up in a family, we're saying, no, it's not an option. , that can be really difficult learning to say no. And me as a female who essentially most of my life, I've been told that I need to smile and get on with things and be happy.
I'm learning even me who works in this area to say, no, I find difficult too. So I think we always like to get young people to. Think of ways that they can say no or stop without actually saying those words because recognizing saying stop is really hard. And for some people that might be like in a situation saying, Oh, can I just have some water to break the situation and then leaving, or I need to go to the bathroom or, you know, just something that necessarily isn't that, isn't that language.
And also we like to get them to think about, you know, when we, when we're asking and giving consent, like you said, it's the bigger picture. It's this, [00:21:00] it's the body language that we're looking for too, because there's very much a massive difference between someone saying yes. With eyes open, eye contact, smiling, relaxed shoulders.
Versus someone saying, yes, that isn't smiling. That can't make eye contact. Maybe their arms are, you know, their shoulders are down, arms are crossed. There's very much a real difference in that. And the same goes for staying for saying no, as well. We need to really read a bigger picture of what's going on and read someone's body language
Kristi: to
Kate: understand, you know, the full picture.
I think it's also important to recognize that, you know, Consent is a spectrum, you know, one end of the spectrum with spectrum, we've got consent freely consenting, um, and that's great. And that's ideally where we want to be the other end of the spectrum. We've got things like being pressured or forced or coerced.
into, into sex. But then in the middle, we kind of have this societal expectation, sort of gray area where maybe you are consenting, but you're only doing it because maybe you think [00:22:00] you need to do it. Like you're in a relationship and you think, okay, well, I'm in a relationship, I have to have sex. So you're not, not consenting, but you're not also consenting.
It's a really gray area. And yeah, Unfortunately, I don't know the solution. You know, it's a, it's a bigger picture than us, but I think it's important when I talk about consent with young people to recognize that there might be pressures within themselves from themselves to do something that they don't want to do or from society or from their peers.
, that paints a bigger picture. I also think it's important to talk about and acknowledge how to accept a no too, because rejection is hard for anybody. , and that can lead to a lot of self doubt in yourself about, you know, all sorts of things, appearance, not being good enough, all those sorts of things.
Um, but when we, I guess when we find it really difficult to accept a no, then we can, , unwillingly and maybe also unknowingly place a lot of pressure on that other person to change their answer, which is. If you convince someone to change their answer, that's not consent at all. Cause you've, [00:23:00] you know, you've forced them into doing that.
I think as a parent, a really good place to start from a really, really early age, which I'm talking like toddler age is giving your child autonomy to say no. In that moment, you know, asking them consent for whatever that is. Um, really simple things. Can I change your nappy? Well, you know. Can I dress you that sort of stuff, which, you know, as a parent might be really hard step to learn, but then you're giving them the space to answer.
And as I get older and they start saying, no, taking the moment to respect that if necessary, obviously it's nappy, you got to change that, but other scenarios, yeah. They feel comfortable to say, no, they understand that there are, what they're saying is going to be respected. And then that can lead to behaviors, you know, further in life when push comes to shove that they know they can say no.
Um, and you know, I model this, I don't have children, but I have nephews and nieces and I always ask them before I hug them and then respect that decision, even though as [00:24:00] much as I want to hug them, when they say no, it breaks my heart. I know that I've just, I've got to respect that because I would hope that that would And
Kristi: I agree with that.
And I always, when I ask for a hug or I offer a hug to someone, I always say, Hey, it's like, you don't have to, , only if you want to, or do you, would you like a hug or a high five? Like, especially if you're kids, you know? Um, I think you're right. Like there's so much in what you just said about the fact that if it's not modeled, we need to at least have those conversations, we can model it from a very young age, , you know, how giving the option, would you like me to, , help you get dressed or do you want to do it yourself today?
You know, that's something as simple as that. And then also, you know, the minute a young person says, no, I Okay. All right. You don't want to do it. And then go, maybe even going a step further, going, is there something that's, you know, the reason why you don't want to do it? Okay. That's fine. You know, just keep, keep asking, having a dialogue [00:25:00] and, and letting them know that it's okay for them to not want to do something.
I know, I know you said like there's some instances where you don't, you have to change the nappy, right? You can give them the option first and say, Hey, can you know, you're ready to change that nappy yet? And then, okay, well, I'm going to give you five more minutes and then we're going to change the nappy and then, you know, they've been given that time to, you know, come around to the idea that they're going to get a nappy change.
So it's really important. And one of the things that I know from investigating child sexual abuse is that, Um, you know, child sexual abusers don't, , don't give options. They don't give consent. They don't ask permission. So if you're teaching your child from a very young age about the fact that they have the right to say no, and you model it, then when someone comes along and tries to push them or force them or is doing something that they know intrinsically that it's not okay, they're going to speak up.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. , and I, I also think another piece of the puzzle, puzzle, which [00:26:00] ties into all of this is. When we're talking about consent or things of sex, communicating in that way is very vulnerable. You put yourself in a very vulnerable situation. So I always like to get young people to think about how can they practice communicating when they're feeling vulnerable so that they can do it when push comes to shove.
And I think, you know, as a parent, that just means, When your child is feeling upset, overwhelmed, um, giving them space to take time to, to communicate how they're feeling and give it like giving them that moment just to think about what they want to say and then say it rather than trying to rush them through the scenario or getting angry back because they're vulnerable, they're upset.
And now they're learning to communicate their feelings and emotions, which. Again, ties into consent down the line when we're trying to communicate during sex.
Kristi: Yeah, it's all, it's all interlinked, isn't it? Even, uh, you know, I talk big on protective behaviours and that's something that I'm very, very strongly about and in the protective behaviours framework is [00:27:00] consent, right?
And, you know, it's just one bit, small part of a big picture that helps. young people become healthy adults. Exactly. And have healthy relationships. You know, a lot of us haven't, we didn't have those conversations about what a healthy relationship was. And you taught, you teach about that as well, you know, healthy relationships.
And I've been with my husband 27 years. We've been together since we were 15. We had no idea what a healthy relationship was for those first early years. And, you know, we've, we've managed to get there because we care enough about each other to do the work and learn. But, you know, healthy relationship is really important because it it's instilling, or it's helping your young person, the person that you love, that baby that you, you, you know, part of your family is giving them a better future.
Kate: Yeah, exactly. And I can speak the same for myself. You know, I, Left high school. And I like, I didn't understand how my body fully worked. I didn't [00:28:00] understand how to communicate my wants and needs in the workplace. I didn't know what a healthy relationship looked like. And then I ended up in a relationship that was really unhealthy and led to experiences that wouldn't have happened.
Had I been correctly educated and had my partner been correctly educated as well. And so, you know, I was like 23, 24 and stepped out of that relationship and Was, you know, I'd become a shell of a human being. I wasn't myself and I had to really like, you know, work myself up from that relationship to come back to who I was, but also completely relearn how relationships meant to look, which is still for me as an adult now still is tough because I, my first experience in a really long term relationship was not the best.
And I'm lucky that I have beautiful models in my life that now model that for me, but it's still behaviors that I've learned that I have to relearn
Kristi: that
Kate: we can instill from in a young age, what it should look like and how we should communicate with each other and how we should respect each other, even in [00:29:00] relationship that can be a really good step in the right direction.
I also think it has a lot to say for, As a, I think education is a really amazing preventative factor for things like domestic violence and sexual violence. So again, instilling this education from an early age is so important for both males and females as well.
Kristi: Oh, definitely. I mean, I know from the, you know, the end of the spectrum, you know, the policing side, if a lot more people had that education and they were had that supportive, you know, environment to learn these tools, they wouldn't be in the position where police were getting involved or they wouldn't be in the position where there was an investigation.
And it's so obvious when you're at the end. And that's why I focus on prevention now, because, you know, as a police officer, you're always coming into the backend when everyone's hurt, everyone's, there's [00:30:00] trauma, there's, You know, there's something that it's just, it's preventable. A lot of this stuff is preventable.
So as parents and as carers and as adults in this world, we can all talk about it and get and make it better by just have opening our eyes, opening our minds and having the conversation.
Tina: Quickly interrupting this episode to let you know that Christie has a whole library full of resources to support you. If this podcast hits home for you and you want to learn more about cyber safety, abuse awareness and prevention, and how you can protect your children, head to the link in the show notes where you can access free downloads, informative guides, and courses relating to these topics.
You can also order Christie's book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. If you want to join the fight against child sexual abuse, you can support Chrissy to reach a wider audience by leaving a review on this podcast or sharing it with your [00:31:00] community.
Kate: Yeah. And. You know, Katrina Marsden, she wrote a book called Legitimate Sexpectations, and in that she, she speaks about how, you know, if we don't provide this education, the result is going to be a traumatic event for one person and the inside of a courtroom for the other, which could have been avoided.
So how can we avoid that situation again? Yeah, it's with, it's with education and having open conversations and removing the stigma associated with talking about these topics.
Kristi: Yeah, so one of the questions that I get a lot from parents is, and they, a lot of parents struggle with the fact that they feel like they're having these conversations too early, or they're not having the conversation because they think it's too early, and then the, then all of a sudden their child's in, in strife or, or in crisis or something's happened.
Or, you know, it's past the way past the date of when they should have had it and then they're like, how do I have it now? So how would you suggest parents start [00:32:00] some of these conversations or when do you suggest parents start these conversations?
Kate: Yeah, so. Um, I'll reference the, I think it's the, the Department of Health's book, Talk Soon, Talk Often book.
I love that book. Great book. For anyone that hasn't read it, I really suggest reading it. I refer to it all the time. I
Kristi: think you can get it for free from the Department of Health, can't you?
Kate: Yep, you can just download it online. Yep. , as a PDF. But, , that book talks about their, their motto is Talk Soon, Talk Often, and I, I firmly stand by that.
, and I think conversations as early as you can are really important. I think, you know, from a really young age, it's just about modeling consent, , talking about. anatomy talk and actually Nate, uh, labeling anatomy, what it is, and also talking about the difference between a vagina and a vulva. I think that's very important down the line, but yeah.
, so starting with those basic things, talking about anatomy, talking about autonomy over someone's body, , modeling consent. , are really important. And then as the years go on, just slowly bringing in [00:33:00] more and more topics, when you're watching something on TV, like you said, bringing that up, if I always like to say, like, if there's a relationship modeled, Oh, would you be happy if you were this character?
Or how would you feel if. You were that character. , And I think that's a really good way to do it at an age appropriate level, because you know, what's age appropriate in terms of movies that your child can watch. So having the same sort of conversation, um, I then think talking more explicitly about.
Consent education. Personally, I think that needs to start at the end of primary school in terms of kissing, hugging, , and also oral sex as well. Cause we know that's a lot, but that's what's typically starting to happen at that age group. Some kids do start having sex in primary school, but some don't have sex until way later in life.
It's, Everyone's in their own journey, but I think there are really, that's a really good time to start having more of those explicit conversations of if you wanted to kiss someone, how would you ask them that? Or if someone tried to kiss you, would you feel comfortable? You know, those sorts of things. [00:34:00] If you, for some reason get to year nine, year 10, you haven't had one single conversation because you're stressed out.
Um, I think it's okay to recognize and acknowledge with your young person that you felt really uncomfortable about this, but you want to open those doors. Yeah. I do believe starting earlier leads to. So if you're a child or young person feeling more confident and comfortable to come to you with any issues.
Another piece of the puzzle that I think is important is your reaction to when they tell you things.
Kristi: I'm just laughing because the reaction is really important because I know when I've reacted poorly I've had to come back and go, I'm so sorry.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And I, like, I can recognize this is hard for anybody, but, if you react.
Negatively or upset or poorly about anything, whether that's drugs, alcohol, sex, whatever, that is online sexting, anything. , I think that's going to make your young person immediately put up a wall and not feel comfortable to come to you again. So I [00:35:00] think it's okay to acknowledge that you're not really sure how this sits with you.
Just need a moment to think about it. Let's come up with a plan together. Um, I think, you know, one thing that I think is important is when we're talking about like sexting and save your child has a Send a nude and then that's spreading around the school, which is traumatic for anybody. I always say it's really important to acknowledge.
It's not the fault of the person that sent the initial nude, but it's the fault of people that spread it.
Kristi: Exactly.
Kate: And this is a message I instill into the teenagers because they're so mean to each other, but just acknowledging it's not their fault. We can't, we're not going to shame anyone. They trusted that person.
They made a decision and somebody else has now done this to them.
Kristi: Yeah.
Kate: So I think as a parent, it's just important to take a step back, put yourself in those shoe, their shoes for the moment, and then come up with a plan together. And hopefully if you're working on it together, they, your child feels like they can come to you in the, in the future.
Yeah. But yeah, some tips on how to talk about [00:36:00] is again, watching movies. You know, I'd say if you've got teenagers now, like get on Tik TOK, really? Like, I know it seems silly, but all the kids are like, are watching Tik TOK all the time and you can really find Tik TOKs. And send it to them. That's what I do.
Yeah.
Kristi: Well, we sent, we sent all random Tik Toks, but now and again, if there's a good Tik Tok about something like this, and I mean, I talk about this stuff. We've had these conversations, we've done all of this. We're still having conversations today, but Tik Toks like get on your child's level where they're at.
You
Kate: know, I've had, you know, parents tell me that, Oh, that, Oh, Snapchat. I banned them from Snapchat. And I have worked with that child and know for a fact that they are on Snapchat. So again, I think it's about, yeah, getting on their level, understanding what it is they're using. And at the moment it's TikTok and Snapchat.
So how does that look to them and trying to communicate with them in that way? It's definitely okay to acknowledge if they ask you a question and you don't know the answer, I think 100 percent acknowledge that you don't know the [00:37:00] answer, but how can we find the answer out together? Because in that moment, when you go and look,
And I think that's also a good learning, a learning curve as well.
Kristi: Yeah, that critical analysis is such a good tool and everyone should learn how to critically analyze things. Like we trust just what we see on the internet and kids trust Tik Tok so much. Like we were driving to school this morning or wherever I was going with my daughter and she was like, she heard something.
And, oh, she said like, this is what she said to me. In your lifetime, you'll pass 42 murderers. And I said, where did you learn that from? And I, and she goes, Oh, I saw it somewhere. And I was like, tick tock. And she's like, no, like she was trying to say, like, I'm like, I'm like, we know better than to trust tick tocks, mate.
Like, come on. She's like, I said, go and look it up. It might be true. It does sound actually quite feasible, but I said, you know, don't [00:38:00] just trust tick tock. And that's what we need to encourage our young people and ourselves. Don't just believe everything we see because the internet is full of crap. And it's full of stuff that is just, you know, looking for people to click like, so, you know, like we need to critically analyze what we're, what we're, you know, receiving, what we're hearing and what we're seeing.
And, you know, going back to you talking about, you know, taking that pause, you know, you can always say, Hey, like, I just need a moment. Is it all right if I go to the toilet? And then go and like scream into your, like, whatever, if you need to just have a moment and just say, look, I didn't expect this to come right now.
Like I didn't, but it's okay. Let's, let's deal with it. Cause it's all a teachable moment.
Kate: Exactly. And I think. Acknowledging that you appreciate them telling you is just a really good start. I'm grateful that you've told me this. I'm grateful that you've come to me for help or what a great question. You know, I appreciate that you came to me [00:39:00] first, um, is good.
Cause you're validating that they've made the right choice to come to you. And at the end of the day, that's what you want. You want them to.
Kristi: Well, where do you want them to learn this stuff? Like really ask yourself, like, where do you want your kids to find out about this stuff? Do you want them to go into their peers where they're going to like be bullied, shamed, you know, and maybe get the wrong information altogether?
Do you want them to learn from the internet where there's predators and people on there that can prey, prey upon them or they get completely, you know, gone right down the wrong, wrong rabbit hole or do you want them to come to you where, and I always said to my daughter early on, I was like, do you want the truth?
Or do you want, do you want to, if you want the truth, you come to me because I'm going to give it to you because I was always like, I'm just going to give her the truth every time. , the last thing of all of this, I think I'll just add because obviously I speak in schools as well. And a lot of young people don't understand or haven't.
Actually had anyone tell them about age of consent legislation. So it's not, [00:40:00] it's not like, and, and from my experience and I, I'm like, again, it's not they're going to jail if they have sex before 16 or they're going to jail if they send a nude before 16 or whatever, but what we want them to know is, hey, there is actually legislation there that, you know, says, Technically, if you have sex before 16, you're breaking the law.
Yeah. And a lot of young people would go, especially 12 and 13 year olds who are just in high school and all of a sudden they've got a smartphone and they're sent and they're sending nudes on Snapchat. They might actually think twice if they think they're breaking the law.
Kate: Yeah. I think we also talk about that too.
And. I just get them to think about, you know, if, if there's a nude going around the school and, you know, if you're sexting and that's considered to be child pornography, and so I get to think about if that gets sent to you and you send it on to somebody else, what have you now done? You've sent on child pornography, which is a really serious thing.
So I always get to think about if something's going around the school, just stop it. Number one, because you're a good person and you should, but number two, because you're putting yourself at [00:41:00] risk if this goes further. And then also thinking about, okay, so maybe you're dating someone, um, and you want to start sexting and maybe they're not ready, but you do it anyway.
So now they've got now got child pornography on their phone and they didn't ask for it. So what risk are you putting somebody else at too? , and I think when you can, , I always, you know, when you tell them that it's child pornography, it hits a bit different and I get them to think about it is really realistically the same as you having child pornography as it is that typical predator that we think about when we talk about pornography, that creepy person on the computer.
Yeah. And unfortunately that is a scare tactic and I never want to scare young people about sexting because as you get older and you're over the age limit, it's a really healthy, normal part of any relationship. Um, that when done right is, can be really great and beautiful in a relationship, but when you're doing it at a young age and putting yourself and others at risk, you've got to really think about that.
It's a really fine line between shaming something like we've done in the past with STIs. Yeah. Yeah. , But [00:42:00] giving them the right information to make really informed choices as well. And also just, I just want them to think about the risk of others, the whole group pressure. If they're pressuring one person into sending nudes, you know, it's bigger than just pressure.
And it's, you know, there's, there's legalities involved in laws around that as well.
Kristi: And it's not, it's not fun. Like it's, you know, it's not fun for them to have a police officer come and knock on their door or. Come and talk to their parents or, you know, and it's again, it's like, as a detective, I never, I was like, you know what, guys, like, you know, it happens.
I was always very, but it's more so they need to be aware that if someone then sends it on, because like you said, early on, they're the, they're a victim if their nude gets sent on, like, there's no shame in sending a nude. , you know, like it's a healthy part of many relationships, but if that person who receives it doesn't respect that and then sends it on, then that's the issue.
And [00:43:00] also if it's a non consensual sent texting or sex, you know, it's what's the word I'm looking for. Um, it's, you know, no one's, if you haven't asked for it, like I talk about if you don't ask for it, if someone doesn't ask for it, you don't send it.
Kate: Yes. Okay. Thanks. And we know this happens so much, like just the girls that I talk with when I say like, Oh, do you guys get sent a lot of like dick pics and, and they go, Oh my God, they just laugh.
They go, Oh, pretty much every day they're getting unsolicited images to their chat to them by the boys in their school and other schools. And , I think it's really normalizing that it's okay to do this when it's, it's not okay because it is illegal.
Kristi: It is illegal. And it's going, if we don't start talking to our young men, especially about it, it can land them in such.
Big problems later on. Yeah, it
Kate: can. You know, we have young people in high schools that are on the sex offenders list in schools that I've worked with, which is just a massive thing at such a young age to, to make a decision that could lead to that. , I was going to say, what was [00:44:00] I going to say? It'll come back to me.
I had another floating around about sexting or about consent. No, it was about sexting. Oh, I think another, you know what, a scare tactic that actually works better than giving them the laws is I get them to think about where their image could go in really simple terms of saying, we have heard young people that have taken a photo on their phone and it's ended up in the family iCloud.
And that hits hard for them. They love it. All of them instantly freak out and I'm like, okay, well, you, you don't want your family to see it. Fair enough. Don't take a photo then, you know, cause it could, and I've got, I always think, you know, thinking the amount of times you've accidentally messaged the person you were talking about, not the person you were talking to stuff like that happens so often, we all, you know, make little mistakes like that.
So just really think about where it could go without you intending it to go anywhere as well. And that sort of scare tactic kind of works quite well.
Kristi: Well, it's, it's not even a scare tactic. It's, it's a realistic. Yeah. Actual thing that [00:45:00] can happen and let's, let's think through the, the, the possible consequences.
Like this is a consequence, it could happen. I've heard it before. Same as you. Like, you know, they've accidentally sent something they're not meant to, to someone that they're not meant to. When your heart drops and your, and your throat, you're like, you can be like, Oh, how do I delete this? How do I get this back?
Yeah, you know, that, that's a real potential consequence of all of
Kate: this. The family iCloud is a classic because they didn't really think about it. It's all linked and then boom, gone. I couldn't think of anything worse.
Kristi: No, that's terrible. I, now that you've said it, that's like. No, there's no iClouds in my family.
Thank God. Um, no, this has been a really constructive conversation because it's so hard for parents. And I know there's a lot for parents that today, you know, there's a lot going on online, but the basics are there, like. teach them about their autonomy, teach them about consent, talk to them about healthy relationships.
It's, [00:46:00] it's all very simple. It's just starting, having a conversation, starting those books that you mentioned, you know, the talk, talk soon, talk, talk often from the Western Australian government., it's a downloadable PDF. I do remember they put it into a PDF. I forgot about that. There's also so many other great books.
You know, if you're too scared to talk to your kid, or you, you don't have the words or you don't know how. Go and buy them a book and just say, Hey, I bought this. Like, do you want to read it together? I think like put some notes in it. Hey, here's some, here's some sections. I think it would be really helpful at your age.
You know, if that might help,
Kate: yeah, I had a conversation just with a friend recently, and he's a single parent, and his daughter just has started her period and he was freaking out. He had no idea how to talk to her about it. Um, but also he was like, because I don't know the female anatomy. I had no idea.
And, , I was like, okay, that's fair. Why didn't, what you should say is that you don't [00:47:00] know either. So let's do it together. And he sat down with her and they like, he got up some age appropriate diagrams and they just learned together as like a father and daughter, which, you know, again, like I've said, it's so okay to acknowledge that you don't know the answers, but just be willing to find out the correct information is important.
Kristi: And how much. How much better will it be for her? She's going to feel more comfortable coming to him with problems and with issues or with just challenges that she's having because she's had that conversation. He didn't fob her off. He's gone and learnt with her. He's acknowledged that he's learning along with her.
You know, it's just a way to connect more with your young person and to have a better relationship with them. Yep. Absolutely. I totally agree. So how can people find you? Okay. And how can people find we are women?
Kate: Yeah. So we are on all your social platforms, but I think our most prominent one is Instagram.
We are on Instagram. We, our [00:48:00] women is spelled W O M X N, just taking the word men out of the word. , but you can also Google us. So we're just www. wearewomen. com. au. And our website has all of the information on all the different programs that we offer, , our parent workshops, our university workshops.
All that sort of information's on there. We've also recently launched one on one mentoring as well for young people. So there'll be directly linked with either, myself or our co founder Nicolette, and we do, , like one hour team sessions each week going through all these topics. So if you don't know how to talk about.
So if you want to talk about it with your young person, send them our way and we'll talk about it with them. That's so awesome. What a great idea.
Kristi: Yeah.
Kate: So we've just started.
Kristi: Yeah. Right. , and just one last thing, if you could, so it's just a question I ask everyone and I didn't give it to you at the start.
So throw whatever comes first to mind. What's the one thing, what's the one thing that you want parents to know that [00:49:00] you know, like what's the one thing that. could make a difference in their parenting and their child's life.
Kate: I think talking about all these topics, sex, relationship, consent, puts your child at a better position than not talking.
Talking and failing is better than not talking at all. Anything is better than not talking.
Kristi: Just
Kate: trying. Yeah, it's better than not talking.
Kristi: Yeah, I love that. Talking and failing is better than not talking. Yes, perfect. Um, well, thank you so much for being with me for the, on this Tuesday morning. , and, , yeah, you know, like, please go and follow, um, Nicolette and Kate at We Are Women.
Women with W O M X N. I'll put everything in the show notes. , I'll put all the links in there. And, uh, yeah, please go and follow them because they're doing some amazing things. They both have been, I, I didn't mention at the start, but, , Kate was, , nominated as, , W A, West Australian of the Year, Young West Australian of the Year this [00:50:00] year.
And, , and did I say Nicolette might have been nominated for something? I don't know.
Kate: She has just been nominated for the BHB Young West Australian of the Year as well. So a couple of young West Australians.
Kristi: Just like changing the world, just like smashing, smashing through, you know, everything. No, it's amazing.
And you're doing amazing work and, , and good luck in graduating soon. Thank
Kate: you. Thank you. I'm so glad it's almost over.
Kristi: And then what will you like, I'll be doing all of this and all of this.
Kate: I'll probably go back and study some more knowing me.
Kristi: All right, well have a good rest of your day. Thank you.
Thanks so much.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or [00:51:00] KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
