Renee Simpson
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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Welcome back to the Cape podcast. I'm with the wonderful Renee Simpson, who I think Renee, I'm just trying to [00:01:00] remember how we met, but I think it was through a business group that we were in. And then we've been following each other for a while. It's interesting. So many of my podcast guests are basically people I've met on the internet, which is cool.
And one day I To meet all of them. But yeah, so Renee and I connected and I was really impressed with the work you're doing in the in the space of supporting victim survivors of sexual assault and child sexual abuse, as well as the fact that you're a facilitator with the Survivor Hub, which is another really important initiative.
And then you're also an author of, I want to go home. So without me telling everyone what you do and exactly who you are, can you just share with my listeners who you are, what you do and how you got here to this work?
Renee: Big question.
I could be the whole podcast. Okay, you could say, I guess we could start back when I, I guess the book writing journey, I guess, would be the [00:02:00] first thing that happened in this.
in that process. So I would say, yeah, so in my early twenties, did the gap year thing lived over in London, traveled around Europe had a wonderful time. And then I ended up accepting this amazing invitation to sail a boat from the south of Spain was Gibraltar to Phuket, which took three months and I had no sailing experience.
And Everything that possibly could go wrong went wrong. Sailed through, ended up, the worst possible thing was that we sailed through a Category 5 cyclone for three days, so that was hectic. So, yeah, almost died. It was insane. We ran out of food on a couple of legs. What else? Like, just, the boat was always breaking down, like there's massive mechanical failures, ripped sail, you know, sheets.
Yeah, it was extremely stressful, but I found like, and so what I did on that trip is I kept a journal and journaled the whole thing and it wasn't until I went home and started [00:03:00] to work with a book coach Which was many, many years later, like I'm talking 10 years, like, and I did lots of different, I did like an eat, pray, love, went to Bali and I'm going to finish my book this time.
And I just took myself off for a couple of weeks. And, but I found like, I kept picking this book up every couple of years and every time I'd change, you know, as a person, I was changing and evolving. And I'm like, every time I'd read what I'd written, I'm like, I don't want to say that. That's not what I want to say now.
And so yeah, 10 years later, I actually was like, no, fuck it. I need to like, I need to finish this. And then I thought I got really serious and I started working with this with a book, a book coach, the amazing Danielle Anderson. She's over in America. She's and it didn't cost me an arm and a leg either.
It was pretty affordable. I didn't have a budget and I had lots of times I tried to, I explored like, should I, you know, look for a publisher? Should I find an agent? Should I go through like the vanity publishers? And it was just really confusing and hard to sort of navigate. And so I made the decision that I wasn't going to self publish because it was just like, Yeah.
Yeah. That's just [00:04:00] where I keep coming back to. Anyway. Yeah. So, and she really helped me because at that time, you know, you had the amazing grace time. He was doing amazing work with Nina Fennel around the let us speak movement. We had me too, had just come about me to movement and I was definitely someone to put a hand up and said, yeah.
Yeah, this happened to me. And so I don't know, I thought it's just this urgency of needing to tell my story. And so working with this book coach, she helped me to sort of, she kept saying, you keep dropping little, like she said, it's kind of like you're skipping stones of your trauma, like through your book.
But she said, but the way you skip the stones, it's so like, it doesn't matter, you know, And she said, and I think the truth of your story. is the trauma, you know, it's like, it's the fact that you, you know, it was the secret that you were holding when I went overseas. So I was I had sexual, child sexual abuse when I was six.
I [00:05:00] told my parents when I was eight and went through the whole attempted to go through the justice system, but we ended up pulling back from that just with the advice of police that said this is really not a system that's set up for children. You know, this could do a lot more damage than. what she, the justice that she's going to probably get out of it.
And so yeah, that scared my mum off enough to sort of go, okay, we're not going to do this. I'm not going to put my daughter through that. And my mum was already extremely extremely traumatised just from going through the whole process because she had her own trauma that she'd been carrying. And so Yeah, and so it happened to me again in my early 20s where I experienced I was raped by a best friend's boyfriend at a party when I passed out.
And so the next morning woke up with these like memories of like this, you know, of him over, over me.
And so. I had a week before I flew out of my gap year trip. So I think it was very much premeditated. I think he very much knew like, is she gonna, I don't think she's going to do anything within a week.
You know what I mean? [00:06:00] So so I flew out, I didn't say anything. I tried, I told one friend, I told a couple of just friends, but it was that victim, it was very much like some victim blaming went on.
It was just really hard. And so, and I really wanted to tell my friend too, what he'd done. And it was just a really horrible weight to bear.
Yeah. And I remember I feel, I felt like that, that was hanging over me my whole trip, you know and then, so jumping on this amazing sailing boat, all this amazing adventure, it really, I mean, it was such a wonderful, I mean, it really happened, but it was also this wonderful metaphor of what it's like, you know living with the impacts of sexual assault, because it's literally like sailing in the fucking middle of a category five cyclone, you know, and I definitely felt like it threw me off course.
I definitely felt like I was really like, I don't know, like surviving on this boat with like captured head sails, like that's exactly how I felt like how I was living, you know, it really like shook me to the [00:07:00] core, made me feel awful. And all those horrible things. But anyway, so yeah, working with this book coach, she really helped me to really channel all of that, bring it all into the story.
And then, yeah, it's such a beautiful story now and I'm really, really proud of it. And I, I love that. You know, when I get responses from people that DM me or whatever, and just say, Hey, this is so relatable and this is such a lovely first step of support for anyone that's thinking about, you know, if they've experienced it and haven't started talking about it or haven't told anyone, haven't disclosed, it's just a really nice self care, self help stuff place.
Like I don't go into the trauma. I don't go, I'm really about the, the impacts, you know, I talk about the barriers to why I didn't. Yeah. You know, go to police. So I didn't report or, and you know, the stigma, there's so many things, there's so many things to unpack, as you'd know. And so, yeah, so I'm very proud of my, my, my second baby [00:08:00] there.
And so, yeah, so that was sort of I guess, yeah. That part of my journey. And then I guess with my work, I started off, I did a social science degree after traveling. Actually, I went to Cambodia, went to these amazing like countries. And for me, like I literally thought I was going to leave school and do a Bachelor of Business Tourism Management because I wanted to travel.
And then I did literally like a month of that and I was like, this is not for me. And so I dropped out and then just got a bit of life experience, two years just working and doing hospitality management at TAFE. So my whole thing was just around travel and then, but getting overseas and having some real life experience and seeing a lot of this injustice and seeing a lot of poverty and just seeing a lot of, you know social issues that I hadn't really, you know, I guess I wasn't conscious of in, in Australia as much as over, over in these other countries.
And so they kind of really shook me. And so when I came home, I was like, I want to help. I don't know how. [00:09:00] And that's when I started just sort of doing some research and I loved anything to do with like counseling, psychology, sociology, loved those things. All those sorts of subjects. But yeah, so I jumped in and did that loved, I loved every minute of that degree and then started off straight, obviously like being quite young, I was 23 in my degree finished at 26.
I didn't really feel like I had enough life experience to work with adults, so youth was just like an easy progression. But ended up working up in the Northern Territory, working in for Brahminy they were called, it was like a it was a behavioural rehabilitation centre. Yep. The young people realised that was not for me, because it was very much like punitive, you know.
Yeah. Ran by an ex military guy special services. And so, yeah, so I lasted six months and I was like, this is not my jam. And then ended up moving to Brisbane and then got into like out of home care, working with young people who experienced trauma. Absolutely love that work. I think the biggest challenge in that work was that the system itself.[00:10:00]
It's not really set up for
Kristi: supporting people.
Renee: Not set up to be supporting people, not set up to be supporting young people. It's not really set up to be supporting the workers in that, you know, the work in the field. So that was really not, like, not, I had wonderful experiences with the kids most of the time.
But I think the other system was just Really negative and very disappointing for everyone, you know, so it was hard and even seeing the young people when they self sabotage because they're so used to disappointment.
Kristi: That they just,
Renee: they just go, Oh, what's the point of even being hopeful or, you know, working towards some sort of joyful experience when.
It's just so easily taken away and it's just, you know, that's so then I went into disability, worked managing a disability service for women with intellectual disabilities. Love that, did that for a year. And then I moved into working in schools and it became like my biggest passion was working in as a school counselor, youth support in these.
Wonderful schools in Brisbane loved it [00:11:00] with young people from refugee backgrounds. Yeah, lots of different young people. And then I decided I didn't want to do so much of the one on one counseling. I love group work. I'm really, really passionate about group work, but I found the one on one counseling was starting to burn me out quite a bit.
And so, yeah, I wanted to take a back step and do more community development work. And that's where I moved into working for local government. Yes. And the youth space. Now I get to manage a youth center. I get to go out to schools and do wellbeing talks. I coordinate the Love Bites program, Love Bites Respectful Relationships program in my region.
And you get to work with a lot of different community services and I love it because I get to be the yes person. So they come to me and they're like, Hey, can we, you know, can you help us with this? Can you help us with this program? You know, and there's just so many things, as you would know, in this.
Working in government or working with these different processes and systems, like, there's still a lot of like rules and regulations. It's like, [00:12:00] if you're someone that's a decision maker that can, you know, make, you know, Things a bit easier for support services and for young people to access support. I feel like that's, that's our job, like we should be trying to make things as easy as we can.
And sort of removing that red tape as much as we can. But I love that I get to do that. And then Survivor Hub then came after.
So it was my book, and then I launched, and then I spent, on maternity leave, I worked on Shake the Walls, which was a reflective writing course for sexual assault survivors, because I really wanted to help other survivors to write their stories. Not so much to write a book or write a memoir, but more around, I found, Something really changed in me when I found this amazing and I think it was quite unconscious this story arc.
Like, I mean, working with a book coach, they always help you to come up with a book plan. Yeah. But that's still very much on you, like how you direct that, like no one tells you how to do [00:13:00] that. It's just like, write your chapters, what's the purpose of your chapters, et cetera. But some sort of like, unconsciously or subconsciously, I don't know which is the best word to choose.
But I wrote this really beautiful, I, I sort of followed this story arc unbeknownst. And when I came out, I was like, man, that's just such a, it's a story of resilience. It's a story of resilience, right? And I'm like, I want other people to be able to write their stories of resilience and sort of really crack out of that, the victim, you know, our victim stories, because I think that's what I was stuck in for ages.
And not even just with the sexual assault stuff. It was like when my brother passed away. You know, cause a lot of our traumas are complex.
Kristi: And
Renee: so it was like, how do we get out of that space? And how do we start pairing ourselves differently and thinking of ourselves differently and like rewriting how we see ourselves?
And so so doing this work really helped me sort of really find a lot of confidence in myself and really helped me to really understand a lot more of where I wanted my purpose and a lot more of where I wanted my [00:14:00] meaningful work to go. Yeah.
Kristi: And so. That's impactful. That's really impactful for survivors, especially, you know.
to, like you said, it doesn't have to result in a book, but getting those feelings, thoughts, and, and that trauma out of your mind and onto paper. you can process it.
Renee: For sure, for sure. And I think, and writing that victim impact statement, which obviously was a part of my journey too. Like I never really sat there and thought of all the things, you know, how my life had truly been impacted by it.
And I think those two pieces of writing are the most important, I think, in a sexual assault survivor's journey. journey. And I mean, there's obviously, we know it's an ecosystem for healing, like there are so many different aspects that we need to incorporate. And obviously that's where I think Survivor Hub is this whole other part of that ecosystem.
And we just got some really beautiful research back from RMIT for Survivor Hub. And [00:15:00] it was, it was so, it was, what do you call it? Like confirming in the sense that a lot of people said, this is the missing part. You know, in our healing, in our recovery, and it's the fact we can all come together and we can share and we actually feel a sense of belonging, you know, and I know, like I've gone to lots of different support groups for different reasons, and I'm, honestly, I felt like I've never really found myself or any sense of belonging in these other places, but I tell you what, Survivor Hub is where I see myself in everyone.
It's beautiful. And so I can say, we're really going to build something really special with this community.
Kristi: Yeah. And it's interesting that like, I didn't realize or probably didn't connect in writing my book in, you know, and only one small chapter of my book is about me. You know, it's about my story about how I got to here and when I was writing that down, I mean, it was a lot longer when I first wrote it, but then it got edited down and, and.
Because of the books, my books, not [00:16:00] about me, but but when I was writing it down, I, the cathartic release of some of the, my childhood trauma was amazing. It made me process it. It made me reflect on it. It made such a big difference. And it was almost like. By the end of that process, when I eventually, and I'm not saying everyone has to put a book out, but by the time I published my book and I self published as well, I had released it all and it no longer had any power over me.
And I think that's the powerful thing about writing, getting it out of your head and writing it down. We can talk about it till the cows come home, but when you put it on paper, there's something powerful happens. And I think that's amazing. You know, shake the walls. And what you're doing in the Survivor Hub is that you're giving people a moment to reflect, to really dive deep into what has happened, how it's impacted them, how it no longer, and allowing it to be released so it no longer has power.[00:17:00]
Renee: Absolutely. And even like, and I love that. And what I love about Shake the Walls is that story of resilience. It actually has people, it gives them time to reflect on their strengths, their skills, like what they did to pull themselves out of those shitty times or, you know, so they might reflect on victim blaming experiences.
They might reflect on reporting experiences. They might reflect on disclosing experiences. And some could be really. Like positive, some could be negative and that's okay. So it's really an invitation to, to look at all the different perspectives of their story, you know? And I mean, even when I wrote mine, I had to reflect on my mother's perspective, you know, cause I definitely think I was stuck in a bit of a blame mom for why don't we go down that justice path?
Like she took that from me. But then when I did, when I did this. perspective taking through that, you know, reflective writing process, I was able to really come to [00:18:00] this beautiful sense of compassion and forgiveness and understanding for mum. Like, you know, shit, what would it be like for me if I had had her, her lived experience and then my daughter was going through that?
Could I actually support my daughter through the justice system? You know, and I probably would have made exactly the same decision as her, or I would have probably found a lot more support for my daughter to be able to do what she Wanted to do, you know, in terms of respecting her autonomy that she wanted to go down that path.
Kristi: Yeah, because it's not all black and white, cut and dry, like it's not all you know, it's not so simple. It, when, when you're supporting someone through sexual assault or from child sexual abuse, when you're supporting someone else, That in it can trigger so much in yourself that you end up almost, you know, vicariously going through it with your, with your child or the person.
So you, it takes a lot and that's why we have support services, not, not as many as we need, but that's why we have support services in this space to be able to offer [00:19:00] that support. That's why we have psychology counseling and groups. Because we need them that we can't do it alone. We're not, you know, there's no iron team and it is a team effort to get through some of this stuff.
And I know from a one victim that I when I was in the place and he was a historical victim and he'd spent, you know, 30 years holding it, you know, hadn't told anyone about what had happened. It impacted his whole life. His whole life had been impacted and when he did tell, like sat down with me and it took so such a long time to get through his many years of abuse, he said to me at the end of the process, which was really tough that he, he go, he said to me, I it feels like it's taken it all off my shoulders.
And he feels like that my whole perspective has changed and that was just going through the statement process. And, and it's not an easy process. And it's not fun. And it's not something that [00:20:00] a lot of victims get much relief from, or, you know, just, you know, they don't feel a sense of justice by giving a statement, but because he'd held it for so long, I think it just finally telling someone was enough to make him feel like it, you know, for him, it was a moment of healing and maybe it was because I was the person taking that statement.
I don't know, but. I think at the same time, it's, yeah, there's so many ways that we can be unburdening ourselves because it's not, yes, it happens to us, but we're not responsible for what has happened. We're not the ones who did it.
Renee: Absolutely. Absolutely. And like, that's the toughest thing that we see at Survivor Hub.
It's that common experience of perhaps like the shame, the blame, but even, you know, how we coped. It's a lot of shame towards how we've, we've coped in the past. And you know, and I guess like society and the people around us and how they've judged us on that, you know and the stigma around that, you know, if we know [00:21:00] like drug and alcohol is a massive issue for sexual assault survivors.
So, you know, the stigma around drug and alcohol abuse. So, you know, yeah. And, and I even hear like the stigma around even self identifying as a victim survivor.
Kristi: Can we
Renee: be like a real shame, you know, other people don't want to do that either. Well,
Kristi: cause it's, it's quite common for people to say, Oh, we'll just get on, like, just move on.
Like, what are you still talking about that for? And you know, like, and just minimizing someone's experience is very traumatic. It's a very traumatizing thing to do. And it happens to us by family members. It happens to us by peers, because. And, and sadly, if we don't face what's happened, like if we don't face it and, and do the work, which is really hard to do, you know, like you said, substance abuse is a massive I think it's like eight times, you're more eight times.
Yeah. [00:22:00] Substance abuse is, and it's because all we, we don't have the tools in our tool belt to be able to know how to deal with this stuff and no one sat down with us and said, well, actually you weren't in the wrong, you didn't do anything wrong, it's not your fault. Your body's going to have all of these responses to trauma.
And if you get triggered and then you go and have kids and you add kids to it, and then they bring up all of your trauma and trigger you. And, and so. You know, we've got to give ourselves a little break and, and be a little bit kinder to ourselves because until you, what you don't know, you don't know, but when you know better, you can do better.
And that's really, I live by that.
Renee: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. That's exactly it. And it's just about trial and error too. Like, and I love, you know, like you mentioned, there's parts of the journey that aren't fun at all. Like even applying for, you know, victim recognition payments, you know, you've got to, you know, see a counsellor in there, get a report made.
Sometimes you'll, most often you'll have to, you know, Have already [00:23:00] reported to police in some way and you'll need to look at that report again, especially if it's child sexual abuse. You know, and that can be extremely triggering and that gets talked about quite a bit survivor hub to going through that process.
And so we talk about, there probably needs there needs to be more support around. You know, counselling for people that are going through that process because even receiving that report, like I remember for me, receiving that report was huge, you know, like actually reading as an adult what the police had wrote, like the actual investigation that, you know, there was another young person that they suspected might have been going through the same thing in my street.
You know, these are things that I wasn't aware of and nothing that my, my mother had told me about.
But yeah, and then there was even like a whole, there was something written on it that it was like special investigation or something like that. There was a task force assigned. So I'm like, what does that mean?
Yeah. The report that were like blanked out, redacted. Redacted. And at the same time, we still didn't have his name, like we knew his, what he, like, you know, like that he'd went by Bob, but [00:24:00] we didn't have any, like, real name in there, like first name, surname. And I thought, even as a victim survivor, do I, do I have the right?
Don't I have the right to know who my perpetrator was? I would say yes. For sure. But yeah, but that was a big I mean it was probably a while ago, wasn't it? Because you were only yeah, six.
Kristi: Yeah, and look, policing definitely has its has its pitfalls as, as we all know. You know, there's a lot to be said about you know, I wish I knew what I knew now when I was a police officer and detective investigating, you know, I think I was always very compassionate, empathetic, and I did my best, but there was times where I know I could have done better in hindsight.
And you know, and I think a lot of police officers That they haven't, you know, one in four Australians or more than one in four Australians are walking around as victims of child sexual abuse, right? So could you imagine there's multiple police? [00:25:00] Multiple police in the job who haven't ever really done anything about their own trauma and then vicariously going through trauma every time they take, they're, they're ticking time bombs, most of them.
I would love to
Renee: see a police officer come to the Survivor Hub. I really would. Because, and that gets talked about, about a lot of us in these fields. Because we're healing, we become the protectors, we become the healers. We become, you know, whatever we want to help people like not have this, these experiences that we had, or try to prevent them or try to support them that it's not, it doesn't get so bad for them.
So that's something that's so common that we all go into these.
Kristi: We, we want to fix everyone and help everyone. And then meanwhile, we've, we haven't done anything about that little thing that's happening. It happened over there when we were five and you know, that thing that happened when we were 12 or whenever, and then we get into these jobs and it's like lighting a match.
Renee: What do you [00:26:00] think about this? Do you think like, I mean, becoming a police officer, would that make you feel the safest in terms of all careers or all jobs? Would you feel like, I have this power, I have this authority,
Kristi: does that make you feel safe? I never felt that. So I, so, and it's interesting, right? So I actually felt like an imposter the whole time I was in the police.
I actually, my catch, like my catchphrase when I was, or whatever, I lived by fake it till you make it. So I literally put a mask on every time I put the uniform on or my, my belt or whatever. And I was putting a mask on pretending that I had it all together and I knew what was going on. I mean, I did, I do know a lot, but I didn't ever feel like I knew what I was doing.
Does that make sense? And, and it felt like I was completely had no clue, even though I, you know, I can recite things back to front. And I was, you know, I was in my feels a lot of the time. So [00:27:00] I was always, you know, I, I got called cause I would be at search warrants, drug search warrants, you know, life coaching the person we were doing the warrant on, or, you know, talking to them about how they got there.
Yeah, I was, I, and you know, my, the, and 'cause it's a, a very male dominated industry, obviously. You know, a lot of them would be like, oh my gosh, why don't you just become a life coach? 'cause you're just coaching everyone and, and talk. And they, they, some of them said it nicely. Some of them said it, you know, in not so nicely ways because they were sick of hearing me trying to help people.
Mm. But for me, I was just like, there's always a reason. There's always a reason why someone got there.
Renee: Absolutely.
Kristi: And why not help them realize that while I can, while I'm in job.
Renee: I thought that was a job. Protect and serve.
Kristi: I know, but you're not meant to like coach people into being good or to not, not selling drugs or.
Human relationships help. Those human conversations are helpful. Yeah. So, [00:28:00] so I don't think you know, a lot of police in the job probably felt exactly like I did. I don't think anyone goes into that job like. You, and it, and it's like an onion, right? It, there's layers and layers and layers and layers of stuff and it's.
When you're in the police, you, you're the person that everyone looks to, you're the person that everyone expects to know what to do and you've kind of, it took a long time for me to get over the fact that everyone was staring at me. And because I was, I'm only five foot one and I was in like a police uniform.
No, but they were staring at me because I had a uniform on. I was a police officer. Not because of who I, what I look like or who I am. Lots of
Renee: people have had different experiences with police officers. Exactly.
Kristi: And it took a long time. It took, it took a long time. And I don't think in the whole 10 years I was in the police, I ever got over the imposter feeling.
Like, I don't know how, and now four years after the fact, I'm like, feels like I didn't even do it for [00:29:00] 10 years. It's weird. It's so weird. The brain is a weird thing. Memories are a weird thing. It's just crazy. It's crazy. Do you feel like
Renee: being in the police force
Kristi: for
Renee: 10
Kristi: years,
Renee: that was traumatic in itself for you?
Kristi: I don't know if you know this, but I left the job because I had PTSD, so yes. Yes, it was traumatic. It did, it did lead to its own traumas. Yeah. I mean, not, Like I loved working with people. I loved helping people. I loved the, you know, investigating child sexual abuse and getting that, you know, those wins on the board and helping where I could help it.
But the system's traumatic, hugely traumatic. And I mean, for anyone who has tried to go and report like yourself or who hasn't reported, because you're worried about the fact that it's, it's the system is broken to the fact that it. doesn't support victims and at any good police officer walks away feeling like they haven't done enough.
Renee: Yeah. And that's what I was getting at that part. Oh yeah. [00:30:00] Imagine. Yeah. And so, but it's good. It's good. And what do you think about the whole, like, recruitment And the training of police officers, because I was only just raising this on my story recently about, you know, we all go and get degrees. Like you mentioned before, like when you, if you work in human services or like social work, for example, we all have to learn how to swim through our own shit, which is like what one instructor told me was like, that's what we're going to do to learn how to swim through our own shit before we can help other people.
And I love that. And so like when I did my degree, there was lots of going through my own trauma and everything was about trauma. my history, my family, like, and I, I loved that because when I did come out, I was like, I know myself. That was a really fucking hard experience. I know who I am. And I also know the, you know, like the dark spots and the, the sort of the areas I should stay away from.
So for example, I learned that I should stay away from working with child sexual perpetrators in the youth work field, in the youth work field. I mean, I certainly could never work with, adult [00:31:00] pedophiles or anything like that. No, no. So. When that did come up in youth work, that was hugely triggering for me.
No and it wasn't something that was talked about. It was just like thrown on me at last minute. Are you going to be working in this house? And these are the young people's behaviors. And I was like, I literally went to bed when I came home that night, looking under my bed. Like I regressed back into like my childlike state, like looking under my bed, I was scared of, is there a monster under my bed or something?
So it was really, that's a bit sad. Really sad. But yeah, so I wonder in terms of
Kristi: Not for change, like huge change, but I just don't think the current training programs, I mean, look there in the last
Renee: degree, like a three year process,
Kristi: I don't think there's enough time.
Renee: Yeah. There wouldn't be enough time.
So you think even the, you know, it doesn't matter if it's not for another three years, you still wouldn't be able to do it. So [00:32:00]
Kristi: In Western Australia, for instance, it's a six month in the academy, learning legislation, powers use of force, all of that stuff. Then it's an 18 month apprenticeship, traineeship, whatever you want to call it.
You continue your on, but it's on job learning from that 18 months and after the two years you get ticked off, right? But they don't provide, in my in my time they didn't provide any training in trauma informed at the time. They didn't provide any training in how to swim through your own shit. And, you know, so it's very interesting that, you know, and we might, that might be the reason why we're seeing such a big rate of PTSD in our police officers, because you've got your shit and then you've got your vicarious trauma on top and it's just spewing out everywhere after a while.
Renee: It's huge.
Kristi: Yeah, so. I think in the current way it's set [00:33:00] up, there is not enough time and we're losing police officers left, right and center. So it's, it's possibly that they just can't keep up the police officers to be able to do it. So they just don't have the time in the program to be able to extend it past that time.
You know, when you get out of the academy, The Academy tells you one thing, the real life is a whole another ballgame. So it's, it's an interesting thing. I just think it could be a three year degree, but they wouldn't have the, first of all, it costs, well, when I went through the Academy, it cost 150, 000.
Or maybe even more to put one police officer through six months of the academy. So, the cost versus the time available versus the need out in the public, I don't think it would work. That's from a, from what I know. Do they need more? Yeah, it probably needs another couple of months in the academy.
Renee: Yeah, that helps.
It's good to actually talk about the bud, yeah, the cost of it. Actually, I haven't heard that side of things [00:34:00] before. I spoke to another, he's a youth liaison police officer and he said, yeah, there's one module where they do what was it called? Like TCI training, like, you know, trauma crisis intervention where we're deescalating people.
Cause I said, like, my experiences have been where I've witnessed like police officers really antagonizing situations. And I'm like, man, like, have you done any sort of like. No, they used to,
Kristi: they used to do verbal judo once upon a time. And when I got to the academy, there was none of that, but I thought it's interesting.
Cause my family, I said to my husband, are you worried about? Cause you know, I was 27, 28, 29 when I joined and I said to him, You know, are you worried about me? And he goes, no, you can talk anyone out of anything like, and, and in actual fact, I was only ever assaulted once and it was in my 10 years and, and it was the one time it happened.
It was awesome because it was actually [00:35:00] quite hilarious and it, the way it happened and I, I'm still laughing about it today, but you know, not being assaulted is not a great thing, but you know, it wasn't, I wasn't in any risk at the time. Yeah. And. So it's interesting. It's just interesting that they don't teach it.
I think, again, it comes down to time. There's so many laws, legislate, there's so much legislation and powers and, you know so much stuff that they need to learn and they cram it into like a really short period of time that there's real, really no room for all of this emotional wellbeing cycle, you know, all of that stuff.
Renee: They're the practical
Kristi: skills. I know. I know. I know. And that's why, you know, when I get asked if, if someone if I would recommend policing to people, I say, yeah, when you're old, like go and have a life.
Renee: Yeah. And I would say maybe go be a youth worker first because at least you do learn that TCI training.
All youth workers are trained in de escalating.
Kristi: Yeah, go and [00:36:00] have a life and learn some life skills before you become a police officer. But you know, I, I tell people that all the time, I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't join the job until I was at least 25, 26 and gone and traveled and done a whole heap of things.
Because for me you know, even 10 years in the job and I did a hard part of the job. A lot of people don't even want to touch child sexual abuse and child abuse. And it takes a certain type of person but even, you know, just working on the road and dealing with all of the domestic violence that you see and all of the the other, you know, serious incidents that you see, and it's, it's, it's going to have an impact.
It's going to leave a mark and you need to be ready for that. So. I think, yeah, those are really interesting questions, but I have a question for you. Do you think that you know, because you had, I mean, you've already had your trip planned and stuff before you were sexually abused as an adult or young adult.
Do you think that that contributed to you taking that three [00:37:00] month trip that was completely, wasn't planned or anything like that? Like, do you think he just jumped on that? And was, was more risk taking behavior because of that?
Renee: Good question. I think at the time I really wanted to live. I really wanted to just have an adventure.
And so, I mean, it could be a bit of both. I don't know. I could say yes. But I also think I think there was a big part of me that just wanted to really live my life. And I still have that. It's still there. I mean, would I do that now? No. It's too big of a risk. I'm sure too big of an arrest these days. Then I was like, fuck it.
And I also like called, you know, the guy I wanted to get back with when I, you know, back in New Zealand and I also called my dad. So there was lots of people that were cheering me on going, just go for it. And the guys that own the sailing school, I asked them to come check the boat out. So I did everything really safe, but I wanted to make sure, am I being crazy?
Like I wanted to make sure my kids were sort of backing me on this because I think that there was a lot of people saying, no, Renee, this is true. Crazy [00:38:00] or too unsafe. I probably would have backed out, but I'm glad that I had a lot of people cheering me on that were like, well, it's a once in a
Kristi: lifetime opportunity and stuff.
But I think if my, how old were you when you went, if my 21 year old daughter said to me, she's going on a three month sailing across the, Across the world basically. And you know, she's gonna be on this boat for three months and I would probably go with
Renee: three people that were trained .
Kristi: I would be like, no way you're not doing that.
I'll pay for a tour or something. I don't know.
I'll pay for your flight home, you know. But but I guess, you know, adventure, I'm a bit of an adventurer as well. It's interesting that. I think because I had a really interesting childhood and you might be able to relate right when you have something happen in your childhood or and it can be just something and you might see this in your the people you support and stuff.
So when you have stuff happening in your childhood, it's like sets you up [00:39:00] for certain patterns and behaviors in your adulthood, right? So for instance, I had a very tumultuous childhood where there was no there was no real, what's the word I'm looking for? It was very unsettled. So we didn't have, there was times we didn't have anywhere to live.
There was times where my, when my parents separated and I didn't know who, which way I was going. I, you know, there were so many like little things. Then there was, you know, childhood trauma from abuse and stuff like that. And so I, in my adulthood, was always seeking. Seeking adventure. Seeking challenges.
I didn't like to stay long in places. I can't, I struggled to set up. I struggled to set up. Friendship groups or stay friends with people for a long time. I, yeah, I just don't feel very settled. It's, and even now, even in my forties, I'm like still seeking, searching, looking for something. And I would say that that's [00:40:00] quite common because my psychologist explained to me, like, you're used to a certain level of, you know, uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable is comfortable for you. So you, so when things get like, when the stress like reduces, and so that's why I was in the police and I was okay with all of the stress and, or I wasn't okay. It was like, my body told me afterwards, like, what the hell have you just done to us? But not
Renee: that much.
Kristi: That was too much.
You shouldn't have gone that far. But I'm, I'm okay with too much stress and comfort. I like change and challenge. And I seek that out now. Whereas when I would say that it's some, like my husband, he's like, why do you have to do that? Like we've been together 27 years. He's like, why do we have to move off every four years?
I'm bored. Oh yeah. Because things get ho hum, you know? And so I think understanding. what our, what our nervous system does and how it works and how it impacts [00:41:00] us and all of that stuff is, has been really quite really quite, quite good for me because it's made me understand why I do what I do.
Renee: You know, I've never really reflected on that, but that actually makes a lot of sense to me for sure.
Kristi: Yeah.
Renee: A lot of sense. Yeah. Cause I get bored really easily too. And, and I love setting myself up for different challenges, but it makes a lot of sense that we're so used to, you know, the chaos or the uncertainty that we're like, yeah, we thrive in it sometimes, you know, like for sure. And that's why we change jobs and things like that too, because we just need more of a challenge.
It's funny cause I feel like now in this. But I do feel like I've, I've, I've loved the stability of my job. Like I've been with local government for five years, but there is a part of me that still gets bored in some aspects. Yeah. So I'm like, and I do like think, Oh, do I, or do I not, do I look elsewhere?
But then I think it's just still because I have a young daughter that I think the security is something I'm really like holding onto at the moment. But I think that will [00:42:00] change probably the next couple of years when she goes to school. Yeah.
Kristi: Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned, I think the police fed my, my need for chaos.
So Because I was, you know, the 10 years before I joined the police and I was in the workforce, I was changing jobs. Sometimes I'd last three months. The longest I'd lasted was two years in a job. And so I was switching jobs left, right, and center, trying things left, right, and center, doing things left, right, and center, moving every four years.
Like I have this pattern of behavior and it's because the chaos is feels comfortable for me. And yeah. So I feel that a lot of survivors, victim survivors would probably could relate to that if they had to have done the work, like if they sit with it and go, and it was my psychologist who sort of pinpointed it for me, because I just thought that that was me.
I was just this one person seeking out all of this stuff, right? And he goes, Well, you are used to, like, if everyone, if you know the, if we use it as a stoplight system, you know, green, orange, [00:43:00] red, your normal is in the orange red. You, you, you live in that area and when it gets below the orange and goes into green, that's when your system feels really uncomfortable and you've gotta go find something to create more chaos.
You'll start a fight with your husband. You'll talk about moving. You'll, you know and I don't drink anymore because of my, like my brain has completely I can't drink because it creates a massive depressive spiral. But once upon a time when I was drinking, I would go and have a bender or, you know, you think about all of the things that we do.
To create the chaos in our lives and that happens with survivors all the time.
Renee: For sure. For sure. I completely relate to that. Completely relate to that.
Kristi: I know. Isn't it a, it's, it's really interesting when you realize it and then you realize how much of your life you've spent creating chaos just so that you can, so that you feel more comfortable and it, my daughter's, well we've been
Renee: in it.
And I think the alternative for me is like, like you [00:44:00] said, it'd be boring. Like, I would feel like this is boring. Monday. And I even talked about that even in like my book, I talk about, oh, and that's why I like wanted to get out of the central coast. I'm like, oh, it's getting boring. It's mundane. Like, and now I love it.
Now I'm like, I love that maybe because I'm, I don't believe in heel, but maybe because I've done a lot of work on myself now, I'm a lot more comfortable maybe with the stability.
Kristi: Yeah.
Renee: Also having kids changes you. Kids and I think community like building actually building a community of people that you respect and you know You can't go and get fucked up on a bender like, you know, every weekend like he did when you were like in your 20s Yeah, so now you've actually people know you out in the world.
So, you know, I don't know like and you're a parent too Yeah, I feel like Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's
Kristi: Yeah,
Renee: I don't know. But
Kristi: I mean, You know what I, you know what happens when I, when I get bored or when things get too comfortable? I start going, what is the meaning of my life? Like, what am I here to do?
And I try and find [00:45:00] something to fill the I know,
Renee: I know, I know, but I think that's what's helpful too, is that we've found that, you know, a lot of people don't have that, they haven't found that purpose or that meaningful direction. And so when you can channel it all, channel everything into that, yeah, it feels fulfilling.
It feels fulfilling. And I think, and that creates, it's still chaotic. Like, I mean, you know, our lives are still a bit chaotic. You know, we're trying to start this podcast. We were still all over the place, but like. But there's methods to our madness now, you know, I think that's what it is. There's purpose.
There's purpose. There's purpose. And it's all beautiful. And, you know, I love that a lot of people talk about this at Survival Hub, they talk about, it's all about just building in more good days than bad days, you know? And so you talked about, you know, maybe you know, back in the day, like there'd be a lot more chaos than like what you have now because you've got more comfortable.
But I think. You've built more good days in now.
Kristi: Yes. Yeah. And, and then [00:46:00] something will throw you for a loop, like I'm sure you see it in your group and stuff like that, where you, you start creating like this safety and this security, and then life throws you a curve ball. Once upon a time, your whole life would have fallen apart, but then you start feeling like you can.
I've actually got this. You might have a few more, few less days of feeling comfortable and safe, but then you, you pick up yourself back up once upon a time. Something would throw me out for a week or two weeks. I would be completely useless to everyone. And now it only throws me out for a day. And so I think that's the thing that we need to realize that yes, we still, we're always going to have moments.
We're, we're not a hundred percent on the ball. We haven't got it all together. We don't have it, but how long are you being held in like that frozen mode for now?
Renee: Totally. And you're right. And there's only so much we can control, you know, like I went through like an issue in my relationship with infidelity, you know, last year and that completely threw me out.
You know, [00:47:00] and so there's only so much you can control and, and, you know, you can just be doing your best, living your best life, but you can't control other people around you, you know, in your world that you can't control. Do something stupid that hurt you. And so, and you just have to deal with that, you know, as it comes, but like you said, you could have completely thrown me for like a month or whatever, but it might've just been like a couple of, like the weekend was sort of a real mess, but you know, eventually you can pick yourself up and put yourself back together.
Kristi: Yeah. And I think that only comes with age, doesn't it? I wanted to ask you agent, agent wisdom. I wanted to ask you though, With regards to obviously you went through that you know, that process as a six year old and you, and you didn't report till eight. Was there a reason why you didn't report till eight to your parents?
And no shame, blame, or whatever, I'm just curious, curious, basically.
Renee: Didn't have the language. Didn't have the language. Yeah. Didn't have the language. It was only until mum and I watched a movie. Right. About something happened to a little girl [00:48:00] that I said to mum, that happened to me. Right. And that's when mum was like, Oh, okay.
And then I happened and I knew that that was wrong, that what that person had done and then we can talk about it.
Kristi: Wow. And that really highlights what I do in prevention education, really, because the earlier we can, we can give our children the language and the understanding that. What's appropriate, appropriate, what's inappropriate, appropriate, safe, and unsafe, the quicker they can speak up and share.
Oh, wow. And then, so when you were in when you were abused by your friend's boyfriend, again, like you were leaving in a week's time, did you ever end up saying anything to your friend or sharing? Yeah, I did
Renee: actually. I had quite a surreal experience with that. So I came back from traveling. I was at this festival.
And I had actually like had disconnected from all of my school friends as well because of it. And, but I didn't hear from them overseas either. So it was kind of like, okay, they're not really good friends. So yeah. [00:49:00] And that, and I get back, I go to this festival, run into all of them at this festival. And my old best friend says, Oh, you know, Shane's going to be so excited to see you there.
Or to see you. And I was like, like, she was still, it was still like, He groomed her to think, Oh my God, like she thinks you're the best. You know, he thinks you're amazing anyway. So I'm like, Oh yeah, great. I'm thinking, fuck this guy. It's happening today. Like I'm saying something, you know, I'm unpacking this bag.
So yeah, so I said, yeah, great. I'll say him. So I'll go over with and then I say him straight away. I just go, hi, Shane. He comes over and goes to hug me. And I'm like, don't fucking touch me. And I said, you write me right in front of everybody. And he goes, yeah. Yes, I did. I couldn't believe that he said it in front of everybody.
He goes, yes, I did. And I'm so sorry. Nay. And I was like, I was kind of like dumbfounded that he just admitted it in front of everybody, but also grateful, which is, I was like, fuck, thank God, like he made this a bit easier in this experience. But yeah, anyway, I was that quick. I just [00:50:00] said, I was kind of stopped and I just said, you know what, I forgive you, but I'll never fucking forget.
and will never be friends. And my friend was just like, holy shit. And I looked at her and I was like, did you know that he did that? And she said, I had a feeling. And I'm like, he's still fucking with him. And she was like, I don't know, Renee. She said, we were doing a lot of drugs back then. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
And I was like, look, I'm, what was I just like collateral damage? Cause I got drunk at your house. And I think I took an MDMA pill or something. And she's like, it's just, we were just not, we weren't right in the head back
Kristi: then. And I'm like, that's
Renee: not an
Kristi: excuse. And that's why we're, we're seeing right now, you know, this is why we're seeing the generation that we're in right now are struggling to hold people accountable, to hold people accountable to what they're doing, they've done and are doing, because we make excuses for behavior.
Renee: Exactly.
Kristi: I mean, great on him that he [00:51:00] apologized, owned it. Didn't make excuses. She made excuses though. And that's not okay. She should have said, Oh, you know, like she should have been like, so, you know, that's not okay. And you know, I hope, hope that he, this guy never did it again.
Renee: He died in a car accident a couple of years later.
But it was one of those moments. Honestly, like my dad called me up, he found out about this guy passing. And then I said to Mitch at the time, I was like, I'm going to buy a six pack of beer. I'm celebrating. And Mitch was like, that's a bit fucked up.
And I was like, is it?
Kristi: Yeah. But trauma creates like trauma creates these kind of responses. I was like,
Renee: this is closure for me. I just know that that guy, you know, I can just, it's closure. Okay. That guy's passed. It's finished.
Kristi: He
Renee: can't do it to anyone. I don't need to go. You know, you have that guilt. about, you know, you feel a lot of guilt around not going through the justice system and you start worrying, well, could they do it to other people?
Like, yeah, that's obviously very common. So that just took that all away from me. [00:52:00] I was just like,
Kristi: well, you no longer had that hanging over your head.
Renee: Yeah. I didn't have to worry about that.
Kristi: Because that's the thing, like when, and sometimes obviously when I was investigating child sexual abuse and the perpetrator, once they've been charged, Go on, takes their own life.
And to me, that was always you're guilty. When they took their own life it was a guilty verdict basically. And, but in the same boat and category with that is that I sometimes saw, and I sometimes didn't, sometimes the survivor didn't feel justified. Like they were like, Oh, you know, they've gotten away with it.
And sometimes they were like, well, now I don't have to worry about it. He's not out in the world or they are not out in the world. So, you know, like, I know there's a lot of guilt there when someone does something and, and, and you haven't gone to police and, and cause, but police, there's such a small percentage of, you know, conviction.
I'm not saying don't ever go to the [00:53:00] police, by the way, I'm saying, you know, do what is right for you and your family and what, where you're at, but you know, the conviction rate is really small, so it can leave people feeling like there is no justice in the justice system.
Renee: But I wonder, like, I'm just thinking about how complex that would be in the sense, like, let's say I did report and let's say he took his life, that would be a different experience for me.
Oh
Kristi: yeah, completely.
Renee: But then I'd be like, you were the reason he took his own life.
Kristi: Sometimes the guilt comes back on them.
Renee: Yeah, I think that would be really hard and that's why I do really like, especially like when it comes to peer to peer sexual assault, particularly, I think I really love the idea of restorative justice.
I really love that idea because I think, I think pedophiles should totally be locked up, throw away the key. But I think I think when it comes to peer to peer stuff, There's, I think there's an opportunity, and I really, that's why I love Chanel Contos stuff that she [00:54:00] comes out with. I think accountability, like you said and then there needs to be opportunities for them to have some sort of education.
Yeah. And then to have some sort of restoration, which is, I love that. Victims of Violent Red, you know, so, If that guy was to say to me, what can I do Renee? I know I fucked up. I know I did the wrong thing what I did to you back then, but what can I do that's meaningful where I can make amends in some way, you know?
And I could be like, well, you can go and volunteer to clean. I don't know, like I'd make something up where they've got to give back to victim survivors in some, I don't know, it's up to you, whatever's meaningful to you. Like it could be they write a letter of apology. A lot of people don't even get an apology, right?
That's a big.
Kristi: And a lot of people never take responsibility or accountability.
Renee: Right. So, I mean, it's, it's a new way of doing things, but I mean, I think it's something that we need to explore more.
Kristi: I agree. One hundred percent. There's nothing worse, and I wrote this in my book, no police officer wants to [00:55:00] see another child or another peer who, maybe didn't really understand or maybe is dealing with trauma themselves and hence why they've gone and harmed another child.
No one wants to see that child locked up. They want to see them healed and not doing it again.
Renee: Yeah. Yeah. And I've worked on a case. I was the counsellor working with a young person and we went through that restorative justice because obviously youth justice. That's what they do in youth justice.
And she was 14. He was, I think he was 16 and she went into a thorn response. And so he didn't understand. It's obviously then she's disclosed to her parents and then we're going through and it took ages. The process did. It was six months of we were doing counselling, me and her. And then he was doing counselling with his guidance officer at school.
And he was had to learn all about consent education because he needed to get into a frame of mind where he could own what he'd done was wrong.
Kristi: Mm hmm.
Renee: And then when he got to that point, that's when we [00:56:00] came together for the youth justice conference. And you know, there was a brave heart counsellor there that spoke about, you know, from an unbiased perspective about, you know the impacts of victim of sexual abuse and these sorts of experiences.
His guidance officer was there to talk about his process, you know, during these six months. His parents were there. They were obviously pretty horrified, you know. I read out her victim impact statement because she didn't feel comfortable doing that. As you can imagine, her parents were there. It was extremely emotionally charged.
That's probably the biggest thing that I have felt from it. Like, I don't know. It's very confronting, very confronting, but I think, I think if you go through a process like that, I don't think you would ever do something like that ever again.
Kristi: No, I don't, like I could only just imagine coming from a restorative, like coming, having all parties in the same room and all perspectives being shared.
And really, but, but I know that that would [00:57:00] have changed the, the trajectory of that young person's both young person's lives because the victim survivor gets an opportunity to have their voice heard and the, and to hear the accountability of the harm, the person harming them, but their kids, this is what I, sometimes people get so stuck in the fact that, you know, it's their child that was harmed, but any child is capable of harming another child.
Renee: The parents were really wonderful. To be honest, there was none of that. They were both very much like this is a, it was an educational learning experience and both parents came from that, you know, that they're young
Kristi: people,
Renee: they are learning. There was no like attacking. I can imagine what like. I can only imagine what it'd be like working with some parents that are very, You're, you know, blaming, doing the blame game, not wanting to take any responsibility, that would be extremely a different experience.
And that
Kristi: happens, that happens a lot, but you wouldn't probably get them in a room together because, you know if there's no accountability and, and they haven't said that they believe, [00:58:00] you know, they haven't, you know in that case, you would only go to the youth justice department if there was, like, they haven't admitted guilt and yeah, so for anyone who's listening, if, if a situation like this happens, the perpetrator or offender, for want of a better word, because that's what we use in the justice system, has to, has to plead guilty.
For it to move into a youth justice type of scenario where youth justice comes in and they do all of this trauma informed and counseling and, and education, if it doesn't, it goes into the justice system and it becomes an even bigger mess. But I wholeheartedly agree with the youth justice system of education and accountability and all of that.
Renee: Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was a great experience. I think it was empowering for everybody. And even like you said, the parents had to have counseling too, to understand, there's nothing wrong. Like she was just, they were just having this, you know, a normal, [00:59:00] yeah. You know, how they were talking to each other, texting each other, whatever photos were shared, whatever.
No one did anything wrong in that sense. Like these, this is what normal team relationships look like. She didn't leave him on, you know? So I think it was quite empowering. I think for everybody, there was obviously, I think the biggest, probably the thing that made it the hardest was probably their peers around them.
Oh yeah. There's so much pressure getting involved, getting involved because there was lots of judgment. Did she, did she like, who's, you know, is she telling the truth? A lot of that. And I think that. really hurt and didn't need to happen. And so I think what I would like to say, especially like the parents listening, is that if you have a young person who's involved, if you know a young person who's involved in a process like this to ask, It's your young person to stay out of it.
It's got nothing to do with them. And just let, just let. Oh, they
Kristi: become wolves. They honestly do. They become so, and they victim blame and they shame and, and they. I'm asking her to explain herself, but I'm going, who [01:00:00] do you think they are? I know teenagers are the worst. Honestly, I'm in the middle of it with my teenager.
And, you know, even it's funny because she said to me, I was such a horrible human when I was 14. She's only 16 now, right? I was such a horrible, horrible human when I was 14. I really liked, and she had some real big problems with peers in that year. She goes, you know, It's only when you look back, you realize just how horrible and mean and, and, and how you get caught up in it.
And so it's really important as a parent. And I was very onto it. Like in the end, I was like, I was ripping her out of situations and like ripping into her as well. And like reminding her that everyone is human and we all make mistakes and we, you know, we've got to stop judging. But I think if you're a parent of a young person and they're going through something or their peers are going through something and you're aware of it, talk to your kids about it because your kids need.
They first of all, they need to know what is a bit [01:01:00] because I push boundaries all the time. It's normal for teenagers to push boundaries and they're going to get caught up in the group and the group mentality in that pack mentality. So remind them that we're all humans remind them that they they need to have a bit more compassion for each other and realize that.
Unless you're those two people or three people or whoever's involved, it's nothing to do with you. And would you want that to happen to you? Would you, if you were in that person's shoes, would you want to be being bullied and tricked and pressured? They were literally living in a fishbowl. I felt so sorry for those young
Renee: people involved.
Kristi: Oh, it's horrendous. It's horrendous. And then we see, and then what we see is all of this judgment, shame, blame, and then we see young people harming themselves. Because of it, because the pressure is so huge. And I mean, I've always said to teenagers, you know, high school is once you're out of high school, you don't realize how small and pathetic high school is.
Oh, thank
Renee: God
Kristi: you get out of high school. I
Renee: remember being in year [01:02:00] 12, just going. I fucking hate most of these people. I can't wait to leave. Yeah. I don't see many of them at all. I know. It's a zoo. It's
Kristi: a zoo. You throw in all of these animals into a confined space and you expect them to coexist and they're all different breeds.
Renee: That's what it's about. I think it's a learning experience just to be able to survive all these different personalities. It's ridiculous. It's a weird. Fucked up social experiment, for sure.
Kristi: Oh yeah, it's not, it's not healthy. I mean, my daughter, the only way we were able to get her out of that mentality and, and she was, and she's got other, you know, mental health thing, had other, I pulled her out of school and homeschooled her.
And, and that journey was pretty intense and, and tested our relationship. But at the same time, it was what she needed. And she's back in school and she looks at, everyone. And, and you know, when drama happens now, she's like, Oh my gosh, we're so pathetic. Teenagers are pathetic. We're screwed. I'm like, no, once you get to adulthood, half of this stuff doesn't even matter.
Actually [01:03:00] 5 percent of this, you're left with 5 percent of it and you forget about the rest.
Renee: That's right. You have a lot more control over the people that you spend your time with when you leave school. But I mean, there's still like different ways you can still find solace. You know, like you can go hide out in the library or whatever if you need to.
Like I found, I went and hung out with the boys because the girls were too
Kristi: much for me with all that. Unfortunately, we're seeing that boys are just in school now. Boys can be just as catty and mean. And I think that it's because social media has definitely changed the way young people interact, but that's a podcast.
So I guess from your perspective, you know, you, You, you went through all of this trauma and, or, or this, these experiences that you have written this amazing book about and you use that experience of three months at sea where you nearly died and all of the other things you've used that to tell this amazing story.
You're in social, you know, you're in the social wellbeing [01:04:00] space where you're helping young people and you're doing trauma coaching and for sexual assault survivors. Has that healed a little bit of you? Of course. Doing all of that? Yeah.
Renee: Of course. Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah, and that's pretty much what we're talking about with the, at Survivor Hub.
Like we, I think we move into these spaces. Mhm. The help, but, you know, and everyone that I meet in this space says that it definitely helps their healing too, for sure. You feel seen, you feel validated every time you connect with someone else's pain and that's healing, you know, definitely.
Kristi: Yeah. That's awesome.
So if people want to read your book or contact you or find out more about what you do, how do they find you?
Renee: The easiest thing would be just to jump on to my website, NAMarieSimpson. com and there's links in there to my book. There's links in there to Shake the Walls and all sorts of other fun things that I'm doing.
Otherwise, if you just want to jump onto Amazon or any [01:05:00] other major online book provider, I'm on there. My book's on there. Fantastic. Yeah. If you want to follow me on Instagram too, I'm just ReneeMarieSimpsonAuthor.
Kristi: Yeah, and it's Marie M A R I E, isn't it?
Renee: That's right, yeah. And Simpsons like the Simpsons.
Kristi: And Simpsons like the Simpsons. Yeah, and I would highly recommend following the Survivor Hub as well if you have an interest in what they are doing. Because a lot of things, I mean, Being zoom and, and everything we can do so much more now that we don't have to be in person. And sometimes I, do you know, I had a moment the other day I had to go into a, I went to something and I didn't know a person there and I had such social anxiety.
I haven't had social anxiety for years because of what I've done in my work. And I, I usually move through the world, you know, pretty confidently because of it. It's one thing police gave me. But I yeah, but I had such social anxiety. I nearly didn't walk into the room and it was so interesting [01:06:00] how I, how I felt.
So I know that when you do something new, like, you know, going to a group or stuff, it really does make it, it takes a lot of courage.
Renee: It does, and that's actually something we're talking about at the moment with with Survivor Hub, that we want to make maybe a buddy system or some sort of first step, because we're noticing that we're getting large amounts of people signing up, but they're not coming, and we know it's the fear of going to your first group.
And I've noticed the last two, because we're getting a lot of attention since Anna's published her story on the Australian story. And so, you know, so if you're listening and you're interested in going to a Survivor Hub, reach out to Survivor Hub and ask if there's someone that you can connect with as a buddy to help you through getting to the first meetup.
The first one.
Kristi: Yeah, because after that, it feels so much easier. Well, once you've been there, you know what to expect. But with, with these kinds of situations where you, where you really want to, to, to lean on other people, it's not natural. It doesn't feel natural to [01:07:00] ask for help and it doesn't feel natural to, to, and if you don't know anyone, it takes so much courage and it takes so much, you know, bravery.
So I can totally relate but once you're there, all of it goes away. You just need to be brave for like a few seconds, a few minutes once you walk in the door and then it all, it all dissipates.
Renee: Absolutely. And I'm always open to people DMing me and like letting me know that they're keen to come and then we can have a chat.
Like, yeah, I'm always there for those.
Kristi: I haven't given you a warning on this question, but you might surprise us. So the question is, and this is something I ask of everyone. If parents knew what you knew, so if parents knew what you knew about life surviving you know, healing, what would you want parents to know?
Renee: Oh, goodness.
Kristi: For their young people, let's, let's bring it back to their kids.
Renee: Probably. [01:08:00] It's really tough because as a parent now, it's going to have to be, it's not something I've had to deal with yet, but I know it's something that will be big eventually when it happens. But I think it's really important just to, when young people talk to you, really, even if it's about the trivial stuff.
Yeah. I think it's just really important to value what they're sharing with you. And even the fact that they're coming to you and choosing you to share that with is a special thing. And I think that really should be honored because when it comes to the biggest stuff, you want to foster that relationship of trust and that you're always there for them.
They can go to mom. Like I love that saying that says, I want my daughter to always, you know, when something goes wrong, coming goes bad or whatever that she thinks up. I'll call my mum, she'll know what to do. I love, I love, there's a post author or a meme or something and I want to have that relationship with my daughter where she doesn't feel like if she calls me she's going to get in trouble or talks to me about something that I'm going to go to the police.
I think it's really important that we foster [01:09:00] this sense of that our young people, like, you know, that it's not this, you know, I talk about like vertical relationships, horizontal relationships, I think it's really important to foster a horizontal relationship, even though we know we've got, there's a power imbalance with parent and child, but when we foster a horizontal relationship, we're acknowledging that there's, there's a, we're equal in the relationship, we both have power and I think what I see a lot in terms of young people can feel quite disempowered by parents sometimes when they disclose things, like even a conversation I had with a young person at the youth centre recently, I said to them, Would you feel comfortable coming to me if one of your friends was in trouble?
And they said, well, we'd be just concerned about mandatory reporting that you would get police involved. And I said, okay, I understand that. And that's a massive concern for kids at the moment. And so I know it's something we're trying to navigate. So I think it's just really important that we let kids know that, hey, we would never make, you know, Choices without you being involved.
[01:10:00] And letting
Kristi: you know what we were doing. It's not, it's not without your, it's not without your impact, you know, your consideration and yeah. And your involvement.
Renee: I love the idea of, and I even said to them, I said, you know what I would do? I would never take that power away from you. You would always have choices.
And I said, you know what we would do? We just go and collect the information together. So what I would do, I would work with you. We would actually call up 1 800 RESPECT. And we would chat with them and find out what are your options? What information do we need that we're missing? And then we make informed choices.
I think that's what I would be, I would, I would want to share that. I think that advice with parents. Yeah.
Kristi: And I would, I would mirror that because if your child can't, if your child, every conversation you have with your child is setting them up or, or setting up the conversation that you might have to have with your child.
For instance, like, you know, if you can't talk about the small stuff and you're not listening to the small stuff and, Our children sometimes test us with small stuff to see how we're going to react [01:11:00] before they tell us the big stuff. And so if we're not giving them that safe space to talk to us and we're not listening and we're telling them they're annoying, go away or whatever happens, and it can happen because we get time poor and we're And we're exhausted.
But if we, if we have that ongoing relationship where our child doesn't feel like they can talk, come to us and talk to us, when something big happens, they're not going to get on the phone to us. They're not going to talk to us. They're not going to share anything with us. And they're going to be alone trying to deal with something massive.
Renee: Yeah. And it can be really hard even if you're of one perspective and you're co parenting or whatever or you're in a relationship, because even like Sophia's father, he, we've had experiences where he shut down conversations, like I've been trying to have a conversation about porn. I've been trying to have a conversation about consent.
And then he'll be like, Oh no, no, no, no, no. We're not having this conversation at dinner. No, no, no, no. He's uncomfortable.
Kristi: Yeah. Well, then we challenge him and say, Oh my God, that's [01:12:00] so exhausting. You just say, sit there and be quiet and listen.
Renee: I was like, there's a parent webinar on this. Let's go. Let's go.
That was hard. I was like pulling teeth, but I feel like, yeah,
Kristi: you can. You are dealing, we do deal with a lot of like parent, look, because there's so many there's so many stigmas. Parent opinions, our own parents, like I still hear my own parents in the background of, and sometimes I'll blurt stuff out at my own daughter and I'll, then I'll have to pull it back in and go, I'm so sorry, I don't know where that came from.
It was my mom or my, or my grandmother or my dad, like, And she, she calls me out on it. What we want is our kids to call us out on our shit. Right. And and the only way they can do that is if we empower them and tell them that they can call us out on our shit and we can tell them that, you know, like if, if you don't agree with me, tell me, and I'm going to listen.
Renee: Yeah. I haven't got all the answers. We're going to figure this out together.
Kristi: No, I a hundred percent agree with that. So, Thank you so much, Renee. I know this has been a long time coming and, [01:13:00] and we had a bit of a, it was so funny. We had a bit of a struggle getting on times and, and, but we made it, we did it.
We made it. Whether it's a will is a way. But thank you for the conversation. So follow I'll put all of Renee's details in, in the show notes. And look forward to what you're providing all of the stuff that you're putting up on your Instagram and the survivor hub stuff. I really think that if there's any survivor, victim survivors on the call sorry, not on the call, but on the listening to this podcast you know, definitely have a look at that.
Shake the walls. Because as I said, when I wrote my own story and even though it wasn't the full, what was in the book, isn't the full story because we had to shorten it down and make it more palatable, but it's so powerful that for like writing it down, it healed so much inside. And that's what you're providing survivors basically.
Renee: And you shouldn't have to go through that process by yourself. And that's what I offer is that coaching and yeah, everything's online with video support. And then we do like two coaching calls. It's [01:14:00] amazing. Yeah.
Kristi: I think that's, it's so powerful. So thank you very much for, for doing this work and helping survivors.
Renee: Thank you for your important work and I do believe that I need to get back in touch with you to have a chat about you doing some work with me with local government. That would be great. I might be
Kristi: over in I think actually no, you're in New South Wales. I might be going over to Queensland later in the year for some schools.
So I might be over your way, might just have to do a few little. Think it up then. Anyway, have a good rest of your day.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also [01:15:00] purchase a copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
