S2 Ep 12 Holly-ann Martin
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Kristi: [00:00:00] hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Hello and welcome back to the Cape podcast, the child abuse prevention and education podcast. I'm so excited because my good friend Holly Ann [00:01:00] Martin is back. And I just told Holly Ann that she was the first guest on my podcast, the first episode on my podcast. And she's back again for another conversation, which is really exciting.
So she's the first returning guest. And For good reason, because she's got so much to tell people. And we're going to have a really awesome conversation around teaching protective behaviors and body safety to children living with a disability, or maybe children who English might not be their first language.
And you know, any kind of learning delays or anything like that, because. One of the questions I get often is I can't teach this to my kids because they don't XYZ all of the reasons and I think Hollyann will be able to better articulate this, it's even more important for children living with a disability or children who might not be verbalizing yet to be able to have this information just as important as any other child.
So yeah, so thank you Hollyann [00:02:00] for being back. So excited to
Holly-ann: be
Kristi: here. I think the last time we talked, right, and this is going a long time, like maybe 18 months ago, you were going on a rock and roll cruise. And then this time you're flying out to a rock and roll, to a rock and roll, like whatever, whatever it's called, like conference or whatever.
Rockabilly
Holly-ann: fest.
Kristi: Rockabilly fest. Yeah. It's like, every time I talk to you, you're doing something like that. Cause you, you love rock and roll.
Holly-ann: Well, it's my happy place, you know, with the content that we have to deal with all the time. Yeah. Dancing is my happy place. So yeah. And because I'm away so much in remote communities, it's just a chance to get away with my husband and do something that we both love and can reconnect.
Kristi: I know. So cool. And we need to do more of that stuff. The minute you said, Oh, you know, it's my happy place. I'm thinking what's my happy place. I don't know. I really need to spend some time this, this second half this year and work that out. Actually, I know where my happy places is when [00:03:00] I'm traveling and I'm overseas.
I need to do more of that this year or next year. Sorry. For people who haven't heard your first podcast episode, just let's do a brief recap on who you are and what you do and how you got to where you are now.
Holly-ann: Well, I started my career as a teacher assistant working with kids with special needs.
So this is really close to my heart. I'll talk today. I was at a school where there was a volunteer bus aid abusing kids on the special needs bus. So we were behaviours back. I hate to say.
Kristi: Long time.
Holly-ann: So I've been teaching over 35 years. But even before protected behaviours came to WA, we always knew that our kids were at greater risk.
So we always taught public and private and things like that. So When Protective Behaviors came, it just made sense and a lot of the things that now are taught in the program weren't in the original program. But the things that I've, like the public and private and [00:04:00] consent and things like that, we'd always taught those sorts of things.
And they were never part of the original program. So yeah, I In 2007, I went up into two remote communities where some terrible things were happening and just saw a huge need for resources. So I quit my job, took a quarter of a million dollar loan out of my home to produce all the resources and I've been doing it full time ever since.
Kristi: Yeah. And for anyone who doesn't follow Holly Ann, she is always on the move. She probably spends more time in the Northern Territory than in WA. She's like Holly Ann and I, when we do catch up and talk, you know, it's usually between one trip from one area of remote Australia to another trip of remote area of Australia.
You know, so you've got extra, like a lot of experience and In talking with, you know, like, you know, and teaching protective behaviors, 35 years experience, you know, and it's something that I don't take for granted. [00:05:00] Anyway, you're the person, you're the go to person that I go to when I, I need advice or to talk to you because, you know, you've been doing this a long time and you've seen how important it is and what, and how it changes lives.
Holly-ann: Well, and how much it's changed, you know, back when I, in 85, when I started, I wasn't having to talk to six year olds about pornography, but now I'm having to talk to five and six year olds about pornography. Yeah. Right.
Kristi: I know. And that's, that's probably for anyone listening, you're probably going, what?
What , we're talking to five and six year olds about pornography. We are, we have to. Yeah, absolutely. Because if you give your children a device with access to the world and it's not protected and safe and, and you know, you're not supervising and checking and, and locking it down and all of the things, then they're going to see porn.
Holly-ann: Yeah, and it's, you know, every time I say that to parents, they're just so shocked. And yet I've just come back [00:06:00] from, as you know a couple of days down south and one of the parents was saying, Oh Holly, I was having it after your talk, I was having a conversation with my children, who are playing on this app that is.
It's, you have to I wrote the name down, I forgot to bring it with me. But you have to find the missing pieces in the game. And she thought it was totally innocent. And then her seven year old son said, well, yeah, the game's innocent, mummy. But it's the ads. And then these ads are popular, the game's free.
Kristi: Yeah.
Holly-ann: But he said, it's all right, mummy. The boobies are, are blurred out. Yeah,
Kristi: exactly. Right. It is the pop ups that are the problem because the pop ups are what direct your kids. If you don't have the right settings on your, the child's device where they can't download things without your. You know, you putting in your passcode or your password and they can just download whatever, whenever, you know, those pop ups lead them down a path to where there's, you know, predators all the [00:07:00] time.
And you might, and I actually told this story last night to a group of parents, you know, one of the, for one of the kids that I spoke to a couple of years ago, she was 10 and she had downloaded a net where she was dressing Like a doll, right? So we used to have dolls and we used to dress them, but now we do it on a game.
And she was dressing this doll and a pop up came up and it looked like more like it was a pop up for a game that was like much more adult. And, but, and, you know, the, the characters had, you could give them boobs, you could, you know, it was, it was a much more adult game for, and the 10 year old was attracted to it because it had better graphics, right?
So she downloaded the app and then, but, You know, it had a messaging portion to it. So a predator has messaged her on the app, pretending to be another 10, 11 year old girl, and has then groomed her to, and instructed her to download discord. So she [00:08:00] goes into the downloads discord so she can talk to this new friend.
And then on discord that this. person who's meant to be an 11 year old girl to this girl, but was actually obviously an adult has started talking to her about penises and, and, but, and sex and, you know, and was grooming her. And, and I think if mum hadn't have cottoned on what was going on at the time, I think it would have resulted in sending videos and photos.
But it just happened that mum just had this weird feeling about it and she was very, not very tech savvy at all. She didn't realize what this little girl was doing on the, on the iPad at all. But she just had this thing like, hey, can I have a look at what you're doing? And, and found this and you know, next thing we've got all this happening.
And so yeah, that's how, how easy it is.
Holly-ann: Absolutely. And you know, it's not to parent shame, but parents don't know until they come like to a workshop like yours or mine. Again, I was in this small country town and, and, you know on the, on the Monday night, [00:09:00] the dads came along, kicked off their boots at the door.
So you can tell you're in a country town and and then they're sitting there, Oh, not in our nice little country town. And then I'm saying, well, your child told me this and these children told me this and this and this. And they, and excuse my language, but one dad said fuck ten times when I'm talking.
He's like, no, no.
Kristi: Yeah, I know. It's so, just because it didn't happen when we were growing up doesn't mean it's not happening. That's the silly thing, like the internet has gone so differently than what we, You know, when we first started on the internet, you had to go looking for people. Now the internet, people are looking for you and your children and they, and you know, kids are so trusting and it's not through any fault of their own.
That's kids, right? Kids just trust people and it seems safe behind a device. So of course, you know, if you don't put the right safety supervision and protection in place, if you don't have those conversations before they actually get those. [00:10:00] opportunities to get into those worlds with those people, then what do we expect is going to happen?
Because these people are are out there. Searching for your kids, for
Holly-ann: kids. Absolutely. And the problem is, I mean, I know you want to focus on communication needs. But
Kristi: they're a target as well.
Holly-ann: Absolutely. Even more so because they're looking for friends. And I was in one school, an ed support centre, and a, a, a, A young fellow on the spectrum is in these virtual worlds all the time.
He literally gets home from school. He even has his dinner in his bedroom because he's just playing, you know, in this virtual world. And it, cause I, and it came up when I was trying to help him make a safety team of adults he could talk to.
Kristi: Yeah. And
Holly-ann: he couldn't come up with anybody in the real world because all his friends are, you know, everybody he knows is online.
And he said, but Holly, I get to be normal. They don't know that I'm different in the game. I know. So they're even more vulnerable to be able to be [00:11:00] groomed and yeah, sort of stuff. And they don't have the same, they don't recognize some of them don't recognize their early warning signs. So the red flags and things like that.
Yeah. And so because,
Kristi: because there's so, and this is, this is true, like any child who's. You know, living with a disability has some learning, comprehension challenges, any child that has mental health challenges, any child that's in the LGBTQ plus, you know, they're, they're not sure about their, where they belong or they're looking for somewhere to belong.
Or if a child has, you know, I a situation at home that they don't feel like they they're They're supported or they're not, you know, they're going to be turning online to get that support. And that support isn't always safe. And there is great people online helping kids and being friends with kids and being, but, you know, we've got to remember the average age of an online gamer, for instance, is 34 to 36 years old.
Therefore [00:12:00] our children have about a 50 percent chance one in two chance of talking to an adult and not a child. And a lot of adults. It's, it's why we need to teach protective behaviors and body safety to our kids. It's why, and you know, like you just pointed out and I continue to point out to parents, not all kids will recognize their early warning signs as early warning signs, because if they don't, if there's comprehension issues, if they don't, they're not able to feel them, or if they live in a situation where they're high.
It's a high stress or high abuse situation at home, their warning signs aren't going to be the same as a child who doesn't have that happening. So, yeah, really important. But getting back to why we're here let's go into why and how we talk and teach with, you know, protective behaviors to children.
Holly-ann: Well several of the really cool things that I teach children is simply the thumb up for safe and the thumb down for unsafe. So, you know, if you've got children [00:13:00] that are non verbal you know, that's a really simple tool. I teach them the sign for public, so I get my kids to sign. Because this is a podcast, I get my two hands flat, pointing down to the ground, and I touch my fingertips together, and then I move them apart, and say, that's public, and then I hold my hand in front of my mouth, and then close my fingers as if I've got a key, and I'm locking my lips.
That's a sign for private. Yeah, wow. So using sign language is such a good tool and one of the teachers was so grateful this week when I've worked with them because they've got kids that are just blurting out
Kristi: really inappropriate
Holly-ann: things. And she said, how do I? I said, just hold your hand up, teach, I've already taught the kids, this is private.
So every time they're saying inappropriate things, just go like this, because they're only doing it. It's like when a two year old says fuck for the first time, somebody giggles, and then And then they say fuck all the time. I know. Some kids, and again, kids on the spectrum and kids with ADHD and things like that, they just want to rise, so they'll [00:14:00] say it.
But if you're not giving, if you're not yelling at them, because any attention is better than no attention.
Kristi: Yes, yes, yes. But if you
Holly-ann: just look at them and do the sign language, They're gonna, you know, they're not getting the feedback they wanted, so they, they stopped doing it basically. I
Kristi: Yeah, I like that.
And, you know, that's the first time I've actually heard or seen, you know, someone say that. Is that, you know, that thumb up, thumb down, that public and private, you know, that. And also, a lot of kids need visual. Like, it's, it's not enough to just talk at children. You need visual, yeah. You need a visual thing.
You've got some signs there. So tell us about the signs.
Holly-ann: so everything to do with safe will always be green everything to do with unsafe will always be red so I actually have a green thumb up and a red thumb down earrings and the kids notice everything everything to do with public will always be yellow and everything to do with private will always be purple yeah and [00:15:00] again it's such a simple tool but I went to a An Ed Support Centre and the staff are saying, Holly, we've got a kid that keeps weeing out in the playground.
I said, it's easy, put a yellow card by the door. Every time he goes out, that's a yellow zone, that's a yellow zone. So they looked at getting purple gloves, a purple shower screen and painting the toilet doors purple.
Kristi: Oh, wow.
Holly-ann: Another simple thing was I was at another Ed Support Centre and there was a teacher who actually has a daughter with special needs as well, who has to go to respite every two weeks to give the family a break.
Kristi: Yep, yep, yep.
Holly-ann: Her daughter's 22. She'd been in ed support for 27 years or something. The mum had been teaching ed support, but she said, Holly, the whole time my daughter's away, I don't sleep. Because I worry either another resident will sexually abuse her or a carer will sexually abuse her. I said it's easy, you buy her a purple towel, purple underwear and a purple nightie.
Nobody touches you under your purple stuff. She's gone, oh my goodness, that's great! Oh my god! [00:16:00] I know, right? She said, The rule's the rule. You give your daughter the rule, she will rip their face off if they go to break the rule. Right! She said, Holly, if I hadn't, I work in Ed Support, how did I not know that?
You know, I don't sleep for the whole two week, two night she's away because, you know. Yeah, fair enough. I mean,
Kristi: fair enough. Like, what are the stats on abuse against children with a disability or, like, children on, like, it's, it's three or four times more than what,
Holly-ann: well, according to Professor Frieda Briggs, it was seven times more likely to be abused than mainstream children.
But the Royal Commission, over 80 percent of women with a disability will be sexually abused in their lifetime.
Kristi: I mean, I saw it a lot, but you know, as police officers, we're so used to just dealing with case after case. So we don't, you don't like pick out certain cases. You just like in the mode of like doing them, but you know, since leaving the place, I, I know, and I've spoken to so many people and they're like, [00:17:00] this is the biggest fear, but the fact that you, something as simple as colors, It blows my mind.
Okay, keep going. You're blowing my mind, Colleen.
Holly-ann: But, and, you know, it's really, I know children with English as a second language is another interesting in this podcast sort of thing. And I was last week I was in a school that was very multicultural. I think there was over 70 different cultures at this school.
Kristi: Wow. And
Holly-ann: when I was brainstorming the name for children's Private parts. Most of the children didn't know in English, that were from cold communities, didn't know the name for their private parts in English. So that is, for all children, that is, you know, amazing. But again, I teach the kids the sign language for their body parts.
So you hold your finger down by your groin, And flick your pointer finger forward. So that's the sign for penis. And then [00:18:00] you hold your thumb and your pointer finger together. Like a triangle. And your groin. So that's the sign for vagina or vulva. So again We can give kids that are nonverbal, those sorts of, yeah, sign language, but it makes it a bit funny when you talk about twinkle, twinkle little star, like a good guy in
Kristi: the sky.
Yeah, that's hilarious. And, but at the same time my only thoughts on that and yeah, if, if they're not nonverbal and they're unable to speak out loud, What's happening to them, you know, behaviorist behavior is such a language as well. And we need to spend some time listening and looking at language and behavior.
Holly-ann: Absolutely. But most if kids are nonverbal and say they're physically handicapped as well. They will have. Zygos or some sort of communication board. So again, you have pictures on there. You have a talking text. No, it's my [00:19:00] body. You can't touch me and things like that. So there are loads and loads of ways of, you know, I'm, I'm really blessed like you alluded to before.
You know, I teach this from 2 to 17 year olds, or there's no there's no group of kids I haven't worked with. So you just have to adapt it to, you know, I've worked with 18 year olds that are functioning at about an 18 month old baby level
Kristi: who
Holly-ann: are physically I've worked with children that are deaf and blind.
But. You can also create the illusion that kids might know something. So on their communication biases you have all this stuff, even if you don't know if they know how to use it, that alone could be a deterrent because yes, the reason that there's several reasons why kids with special needs. Well, there's lots of reasons why kids with special needs are more likely to be targeted.
People think they're less likely to, but unfortunately that's not true because, you know, of their behaviors and things like that, people [00:20:00] think, oh, you know, people wouldn't go for them, but they don't have the language skills to be able to, you know, sometimes, but we can set up the illusion that they do.
Kristi: Yeah.
Holly-ann: They don't have the language skills. They don't have the same group of friends as mainstream children do, perhaps. And more adults have access to them through going to therapy and respite and things like that. So one of the things I'm working on at the moment is a, because, you know, if children have NDIS, sometimes parents are just so grateful to find somebody to look after their child.
They have no training whatsoever, but I'm working, because I've got a parent handbook, but I'm working on a handbook for parents to give to. The carers saying, my kid knows this, so don't be trying anything on with my kid. Yeah, just
Kristi: kind of, well, just kind of giving them the heads up. I mean, it's no different to, I was thinking about this this week or the last week, I don't know, over the last week about how I vetted adults in my daughter's life.[00:21:00]
And and people go, Oh, you know, family, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, because of what my job, I know that you can't trust it. Like basically, yes, you don't want to think bad of your family and members of your family and friends, but you know what, until they prove to me that they're a safe adult and they show me, I pay more attention to behaviors than I do to.
What they say, right? And that's, that's because I had, that's because I know behaviors tell all right. But the thing, the thing that I was thinking about was that how did I vet adults? You know, how did I make, how did I choose whether that was someone I could trust or not? Right. And one of the things that I did was I would talk really openly about The lessons that I had given Charlotte and how I talked, you know, how, what she knew and what I knew, and I would be very open and the people that were receptive and talked openly with me, they sort of got like a green tick for, for instance, and the ones that were like kind of closed off and [00:22:00] didn't want to hear about it, they were the red tick, but that didn't mean that I trusted them explicitly.
It's just, Hey, like. But I knew by talking out loud and saying, well, my daughter's been taught protective behaviors. She knows what grooming is. You know, I'm, I trust my daughter over everyone. You know, if she tells me something, I'm going to believe it. Like it was literally, it's like putting repellent around your child.
Exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's doing. You're repelling someone who thinks, oh, this child is a vulnerable kid that I can target. So that is a great handbook for parents to be able to go, Hey, this is, like, my child knows this. They, they might be not, they might be nonverbal, but we have this tool for them, you know, if, you know, so you're kind of giving you're kind of giving fuck off lives to any predators out there.
Because on my TikTok yesterday, I shared a video of a child sex offender from the U. S. I was trying to find another video that I couldn't find it where he was talking about how he groomed [00:23:00] families first and that he he groomed families first and then, you know, he would pick children based on their lack of education.
their lack of social circles, but he would also on the flip side of that, choose children who had friends in similar situations. So if the child had lack of friends, was low, low self esteem, low socioeconomic, or like needed that superhero, person in their life, he would choose them because they're, he would be able to groom and molest his, their friends.
So that's on my TikTok from yesterday. And people are like, Oh my gosh, who would trust a person like that? But we trust them every day.
Holly-ann: Absolutely. You know, creditors go after vulnerable children and available children. Any child that's online is automatically both anyway.
Kristi: Yep.
Holly-ann: So, you cannot say, not my child.
Kristi: Yep.
I hate that saying.
Holly-ann: Oh, [00:24:00] I, well, I heard it several times over the last three weeks of school coming back. But it's You know, I've got, we've got so much to thank the Royal Commission for, but last year's maltreatment study, because, you know, for over 35 years, I've always said one third of children will be sexually abused, but we now know it's 28.
5 percent. Yeah, nearly one quarter. You wouldn't back a horse. Over one quarter, yeah. Was it's you know, it's only one. It's it's a third. Yeah he wouldn't back a horse with those sorts of odds and what makes your child so special it's not going to happen to them so, you know, i'm just I just I really hope parents listen to this and share it with other parents because You know, we have to have these conversations.
You know, we've got Child Protection Week coming up in September. Here in Western Australia, we hardly do anything for Child Protection Week. It just breaks my heart. In the U. S., they have Child Protection Month. Why do our kids in Australia only get a week?
Kristi: Oh, [00:25:00] because, yeah, oh gosh, don't even go there.
Like, there's so many political issues that we have in regards to. this topic. I'm in an advocacy group that's pushing for a national, national public, national public sex offender register. Because in Western Australia, we do have a public sex offender register, except If you've ever, if you are NWA and if you ever try and do it the, when you go and ask for, so you can only find out who's in your area, and you only get a photo of them.
Have you ever looked it up? No, no. See, most people don't know this. We're the only state Oh, I knew it was
Holly-ann: there. The reason I haven't is I'm actually this is probably one of the only things that we disagree on. I worry if we have That it will lull parents into a false sense again. Oh, we don't have it in our street.
What about the 15 year old boy that lives next door that's been watching porn all night? Yeah. No, I agree with
Kristi: you. We know the stats
Holly-ann: of [00:26:00] behaviour. What about the 6 year old in your class that's just, yeah. So I, I, I know it will yeah, I just worry that it will stop people. Going down the education route.
Kristi: No, so I personally, so, so a couple of things and this is not what we were going to talk about. A couple of things that have come. Well, I knew about, but I have come to like, sorry, most people don't know that when someone is a registered sex offender, registered child sex offender, that okay, so they go on the registered child sex offender list for 10 years.
So they're reportable to the police for 10 years. They, in Western Australia, but in other states, they only have to go into the police station once every 12 months. They only have, they, they have to report where they're living and they have to give their phone number, their, their license plate, all of that stuff to police, right?
If they're, [00:27:00] if they're considered a low risk sex offender, don't ask me how they how they, you Decide they're risk rating, but they, if they're a low risk sex offender, they will only go once a year. Okay. And then so they, so here's the other thing, the most people are under the thing, most people, the public think that a registered sex offender, when they're on the list should don't have access to children, so.
But here is the truth, unless it's a parole condition, which only lasts for 12 months or two years, depending on how that long their parole is, registered sex offenders can live in homes with children and they can be, have access to children. And it doesn't have to be supervised. They just have to notify police that they are, that these children are, have, you know, in their home, they live with them, or they see these children.
Child protection in Western Australia then goes and sees those families and tells, and makes sure that there's some sort of, you know, [00:28:00] Safety plan in place, but no one's monitoring or, or following up. No one's checking. The other thing that most people don't know is police when they, they're meant to do a yearly check to make sure that that registered sex offender is living in that address.
So they can go to the door and knock on the door and say, Hey, do you live here? Are they here? Police don't have any powers to search that property. They don't have any powers to check that property. They don't have all they have power to do is enter to check that they live there and then leave. They can't search.
They can't check. They can't seize anything. If they see something that's So they have to go back under a warrant. So most of the public don't realize that registered sex offenders, there isn't basically once they're clear and free of like done their prison sentence, they're free to do whatever they want, be wherever they want, live close to schools, live go to [00:29:00] shopping centers or go to pools or whatever, whatever.
Right. So I think I think there has to be with regards to the national with, with a public sex offender register. I definitely hear where you're coming about, you know, children and, and et cetera. And the fact that the public, but the public are already thinking that that's. normal. Like they think that there's more protections in place when there's very little protections in place.
And you probably know that because you go out into community and see that all the time, right? But most people don't even know that that registered sex offenders have no, unless there's a condition of their release, which will, it would be a condition on their parole. There's basically no protection against living with a child.
And it's really, it's really concerning. So one of my concerns with the National Sex Offender Register, which I voiced with the group, is that, you know, we don't want children who end up on the register to have their name on a public register for the rest of their lives. [00:30:00] So, Some of the conditions in place would be that, you know, until, unless they offend as an adult, then they wouldn't be on there.
So that's my, my two cents in that, that space,
Holly-ann: but yeah, they've been caught. That's, and we know, we know how low the conviction rates are because, you know, better than 0. 03%.
Kristi: I know. And that's the sad thing. And it doesn't, I don't think it takes away from prevention. I think. Prevention education is
Holly-ann: I worry it will.
Kristi: Yeah, well, that means we work harder and we work harder. I know we're working hard now, but it's, it's a perce, it's a public perception thing. Like, I think as a, as a government, the government needs to create better public education around this because there's not a, people don't understand it and people don't know about it.
Unless someone like I speak up and say. Did you know that blah, blah, blah, blah, [00:31:00] blah. And everyone's going, Oh my gosh, like, how is that possible? And I'm like, this has been going on forever. My biggest concern and my biggest reason for wanting something like this is the amount of sex offenders that target mothers, single mothers or single parents and especially children with a disability.
Because they are, they are, they are seen as the greatest, the easiest target.
Tina: Quickly interrupting this episode to let you know that Christie has a whole library full of resources to support you. If this podcast hits home for you and you want to learn more about cyber safety, abuse awareness and prevention, and how you can protect your children, head to the link in the show notes where you can access free downloads, informative guides, and courses relating to these topics.
You can also order Christie's book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. If you want to join the [00:32:00] fight against child sexual abuse, you can support Chrissy to reach a wider audience by leaving a review on this podcast or sharing it with your community.
Holly-ann: Absolutely. But, you know, even SOMS don't know. A couple of years ago I went and trained our police that are supposed to be tracking these predators. Sex Offender
Kristi: Management Squad for anyone who doesn't know what SOMS is.
Holly-ann: Yes, thank you.
And I blew their minds. They hadn't realized half of the things that these predators could be on. You know, they, they tip, hand over your phone and they check to see if they're on Facebook and stuff like that. And I'm going. But, you know, they wouldn't be on that game that I was Talking about earlier and you know, there's so many yeah, you know, I know of a place where kids upload stories and people, you know, critique their stories and things like this, you know, there's so many places that that they go.
Because the internet is now the new park. I was making jokes with the kids this week, you know, in the olden days we used to talk about a white van driving around parks and a man with a bag of [00:33:00] lollies. And, you know, now the internet is the, the park and, you know, V bucks and Roebucks are the lollies sort of thing, so.
Yeah,
Kristi: so true, so true.
I'm just I'm just, yeah, I'm just disappointed in the whole system. Really? I'm just, you know, like I, I'm just disappointed because you know, I worked within the system and hence why it broke me because the system's broken. Because every time I dealt with a child, you know, There's one memory I have that is just haunting me at the moment and it's of, you know, two, two little girls who and it was one of the worst because it was a mother and her step and the stepfather abusing these two little girls.
You know, and like, their whole lives, like, they'll never recover from what, like, they'll move on, they'll heal, but that, you know, we know how much damage child [00:34:00] sexual abuse does to a person, and, you know, it shortens lifespans, it creates mental health, it creates, you know, substance addictions, it creates You know, and we will never know what their, you know, their potential is kind of like, it's like squashing them down before they even get a chance to really spread their wings and fly.
I mean, and people and, and survivors, you know, they, they manage, they get, they move on and they get, get to a point where they can spread their wings and fly, you know, some survivors thrive. But they're always struggling against that, that thing that held them back that chain around their, their ankle kind of thing.
I just, I just, people just, you know, it just, the crime, the, the impact doesn't have the same amount, like people are get up in arms about, you know, certain things, but. Why aren't we screaming from the top of our lungs about child sexual abuse?
Holly-ann: Well, you know, we had the march about domestic violence and the [00:35:00] government put forward, you know, 1 billion about, you know, to stamp out domestic family and domestic violence.
Where's the march for children? You know, I don't see anybody marching for children. My worry is again, that money's going to go to the wrong end. It's going to go to the bottom of the cliff. We need to be at the top of the cliff, stopping people going over. It needs to start when children are. You know, well, yeah, definitely.
But three at the latest, we need to start. But, you know, I've over the last this year, I've been talking with five year olds about coercive control. What? Why? What's happened? I'm going to show you exactly how I do it, because it was so funny. These teachers this week, when they're watching my lesson with the kids, I've gone, Exactly.
Yeah, that just makes sense, Holly. But as you know, I've written these 12 songs with Aboriginal kids in remote communities, and we've got two about consent. And I have two puppets, [00:36:00] and in the song, the puppets, the boy puppet goes and tickles the girl, then halfway through the song, the girl puppet goes and, and kisses the boy.
So then at the end of the lesson, I pull out the puppets, and they're called Braden and Diddypopadiddy. for people that want to listen. But Brayden goes to Diddy and says, can I tickle you? And she says, no, please let me tickle you. No, come on, let me tickle you. So I said, can you humbug? And then he says I won't be your friend when you're five.
That is coercive control.
Kristi: Yeah, right.
Holly-ann: Then he says, you can't come to my birthday party. That is coercive control. So, and then she goes and then he says I'll punch you. So we talk about, that's a threat. And then we talk about, he says, I'll give you an ice cream. So that's a bribe. The five year olds are just eating it up.
They can understand it totally. And then I flip them. And then she says, can I kiss you? And he says, oh, gross, no way. And then she says but you're my boyfriend. Do we have boyfriends or girlfriends at school? No, we [00:37:00] don't. Well, we shouldn't have. Well, we do
Kristi: because I remember having a boyfriend at five. So yeah, go on.
Holly-ann: But you shouldn't actually be snogging them at school. No, definitely not consent. No,
Kristi: no, no, definitely not. But that was kiss chasey.
Holly-ann: Well, again, where's consent in kiss chasey? In the bottle and all of those things that kids play. But then she says I'm going to cry and you'll, you know, you'll make me happy.
And so that's called coercive control. So I've got all of these different scenarios, but I use the words, he's, he's trying to control or she's trying to control him by getting him to do this. So this is where we started. It's too late when they're 15. It's already embedded. Yeah. Let's start it early. Have this, and this is why for me, language is so important and giving, we've got, you know, words like at the moment I'm writing some stuff for teenagers on gaslighting, coercive control and love bombing.
Because you know it's been around forever, but it's [00:38:00] only in recent times that we've actually got words for it now So yes, you know we can talk to even five year olds about You know when people just want to be a friend all the time or you know And you can talk about love bombing as part of grooming and all of this stuff, so You know, I'm so lucky that I get to sit on the ground with all these children and just practice basically.
So, my programs come out of like 35 years worth of failures basically.
Kristi: Oh, no. 35 years worth of successes.
Holly-ann: But that's why, you know, I, I say our program's the most, I used to say confronting, I now say progressive, because we have to change with the times. We have to, you know, use the language that we now have.
And start as early as possible. And, and, you know I know you wanted me to show some resources before.
Kristi: Oh yeah, just, just for anyone listening and watching you know, this will be on YouTube and, and for anyone listening, you know, Hollyann's one of the best because she's been, like [00:39:00] she said, 35 years of successes in where she's spent that time with kids and knows what works and knows what's going to make an impact.
And if Hollyann says to me, we need to talk to five year olds about pornography. I'm taking that on face value and I know we need to talk to kids about pornography and I know we do anyway. You know, not, not when they hit freaking you know, 12 or 13 when you think, oh, oh, should we talk about sex now?
No. I was reading a report And this, this podcast is going everywhere. I was reading a report from the the internet watch foundation yesterday, their 2023 report. Fuck me. That report, like I haven't been shocked in a while. And so one of the case studies that they've sort of like they have their report and they give their statistics.
So self produced or coerced Child exploitation material. So where a child takes their own images and [00:40:00] videos and shares that with someone so they had a group, so they, they break it down into how many how many, they break it down into age categories, zero to three or zero to two, three to six.
7 to 10, 11 to 13, 14 to 15, 16 to 17. So, in their statistics with self produced child exploitation material the la the largest group is the 11 to 13 year old girls. 98 percent of all of their reports, which was over 250, 000 last in the 2023 period were girls, 98%. The largest group it was 11 to 13 year olds.
The second largest group was 7 to 10 year olds. And the third largest group was three to six year olds, three to six year old girls being coerced to produce their own images. And they're then broken down into three categories. So the three [00:41:00] categories are based on what, how you you categorize child sexual exploitation material in the police.
Same, same category, category system, A, B and C. The first group, A, is penetration. Second group is outside of the Outside of the genitals kind of thing, masturbation kind of stuff. And the third group is anything else posing sexually. And so the, so the two groups, the A and B were about 50 percent of them were a either a category A or B.
So penetration of a child between three and six and. About 25 percent was masturbation or some form of rubbing of the genitals. And then the third one was any kind of posing, which could be them taking a photo or imagery off their genitals, bending over in front of the camera any taking the clothes off.
And, and so the, the, the scary thing is, is our three to six year old children. Are being exposed to predatory behaviors, which are coercing [00:42:00] them and grooming them to take these images and put them and send them to them. How the fuck?
Holly-ann: Which is why I wrote in my book, some people, you know someone should have told me.
I caught quite a bit of flack and especially from the US about having this picture with a little girl naked holding an iPad who looks probably about six or seven.
Kristi: Yeah.
Holly-ann: But we know. That they're doing it. So the picture is designed to help adults have a conversation. You can only just see a cute little bottom.
Yeah, it's
Kristi: not, it's not, it's not an explicit photo
Holly-ann: or picture. But people, you know, complain that I'm showing children pornography. No. We can't faff around with children. We can't be airy fairy and we have to have things that you know, they can relate to. So this is why this book, Someone Should Have Told Me, is so important because it covers you know, there's a picture of the naked child bouncing on the bed where the guy would have said, Oh, you're so cute in your Superman outfit.
You know, with that simple picture, people can [00:43:00] talk about the grooming of children. And so, especially with children with special needs, you cannot, Use anecdote, you know. Funny stories and things like that. You have to be explicit. You cannot, aboriginal children. You know, English is their second language.
So you need to explicitly teach this stuff and have the visuals. That's not You know shocking to them, but it's really important. And, you know, the other resource that I really recommend everybody download for free. Ah, Talk Scene Talk
Kristi: Coffin, yeah.
Holly-ann: You know, I've, I've just ordered, we've got Child Protection Week coming up and I've got hundreds of, Parent workshops.
I've just ordered 300 of these. I always give them out because, you know, this is why kids are going looking for this stuff because they don't, you know, they're not learning it from their parents. So we have to have this in every home. There's now an app that goes with it. So people can down either download a PDF, contact the health department and get the hardcover book.
Or now there's an app. [00:44:00]
Kristi: And what I love
Holly-ann: about it is, it's age appropriate sex education. So this is, like you said before, this is what you teach them when they're 2 to 4, 4 to 6, and it's in increments what's, you know, a behaviour. But I really recommend this and everybody should own it because it's so many So much good information in there.
Kristi: The thing is, is if you really want your kids, so, so two things come to mind. If you really want your kids to have a safe childhood, you need to stop hiding away from the actual truth of the matter is that we. If we're not the, if we're not the people, and I said this in my book, if we're not the people who teach it to them, someone else is going to come along and teach it to them and abuse them.
And the second thing to that is, is that kids don't give a fuck. And I'm being a bit sweary in this podcast episode. Kids do not give a fuck about this shit. If it comes from a place of non fear based. You know, they just want the truth. They don't need to know about any of the, but you [00:45:00] don't need to add your little fears and problems to the, the, just, just give them the truth.
And they, and they don't freak out. They don't stress. They're not, you're the one, we're the ones who put that onto them.
Holly-ann: Definitely. Yeah. Some of the other resources that I really recommend there's a fantastic series of books written by a mum of an autistic son and they were the books that she wishes she had.
Kristi: Yeah.
Holly-ann: So there's Things Tom Likes, What's Happening to Tom, which is puberty and it's They're social stories for autistic kids. I, I recommend them for lots of other kids, but they're specifically written. And then there's Tom needs to go and it's about toileting and, and stuff like that. And then there's the same for girls.
Her name's Ellie. But again, there's really graphic pictures in here where, you know, he's at a, outside of a shop touching his private parts. So for kids with special needs, it's really important [00:46:00] that they. See, kids like themselves in these resources. Yes. They have the, you know, the conversations. The other, my other favorite all time book for all children, but again, especially kids with special needs, Everybody Should Have a Pop Up Vagina book.
Have you seen this? No, please show it.
Kristi: Oh, wow. That's awesome. So I wish I had have had that for Charlotte
Holly-ann: But it's all about so it's got It's got this cute wheel thing here. Yeah It shows you it shows the egg going down the fallopian tube and stuff like that That's so good. And then it's got
Kristi: what's it called vaginas and Vaginas and periods 101.
Holly-ann: But then it's got, you know pads and then pads with wings. That is so [00:47:00] awesome. Talks about period pads. Undies. Tampons. Menstrual cups.
Kristi: Oh, wow.
Holly-ann: And a little mirror. Different. You know, clitorises and things, and then a little mirror so you can check yourself out.
Kristi: Oh, that's so good. Charlotte's going to kill me for telling this story, but I remember, and she laughs about it now, so, but she when she was about three, and I was teaching protected behaviours to her and, We were talking about, you know, no one's allowed to touch your vagina vulva, you know, and like naming the different parts and stuff.
And I don't know how it happened, but she said, but where does the pee come from? And cause she thought it come out of her bum and like, she was only little of course. And I was like, no, there's actually holes down there. And so next thing she's in front of the mirror. She had a floor to ceiling mirror in her bedroom at the time.
And next thing she's in the mirror with no pants on [00:48:00] looking at her. You know, all of her private parts and realizing that she's got, there's two, two major holes and then the, you know, the way he comes out of here and she's in the, and she's like, you know, like, and it's so innocent and funny now we laugh about it all the time.
And. You know, and then when her dad came home, when her dad come home, she's like, dad, go and look at my hole. And I'm like, no, that was a teaching moment, right? No, we don't show people our private parts. We don't show them, you know, they're for us, they're our private parts, you know? And so, you know, this is the thing, like, yes, it's so interesting to learn this stuff.
And kids will at three, four, they're, they're learning that, you know, it feels good to touch it. It feels good to touch it. You know, there's other parts to it than themselves. So yeah, use those as teachable moments.
Holly-ann: And you don't want to, you know, Googling, where does the wee come from?
Kristi: No, because then we're going to have porn.
[00:49:00] Yeah, or golden showers or something, you know, like, seriously, this is the sad thing about pornography is that literally any topic or heading leads to porn on, on an internet search.
Holly-ann: IGA. IGA here in Australia is a shop. If you put IGA into Google images. Naked pictures will come up on school computers. And I learned this at a school from 14 year old girls, that's how I know about it.
Because all the boys are leaning over their shoulders saying, Type in IGA, type in IGA on the school's computer. Even with all the filtering systems up the wazoo, because bum sex is all going to be filtered out. Nobody's filtering out IGA. And an African American porn star comes up.
Kristi: Oh, goodness gracious.
I actually, I was at a school last night and they said to me, we can have the strictest of strictest filtering and the filtering, like the company doing the filtering will change [00:50:00] something and it'll, all of it will be, and so then they, they're constantly having to redo the filtering. So once upon a time, it just.
It was a catch all, right? And no one could nothing could get through, but now like they said that something's like, it's not as good as it used to be. So we can't trust this stuff. Like, parents, you can't trust it.
Holly-ann: You and I could be paid a fortune from FamilyZone all of these filtering, you know, because I guess you're the same as me.
I'm always asking, well, what, you know, which one should we use? And I'm going, you, you are the only thing I'm recommending. I'm not, you know, they're all great, but the kid across the road doesn't have it. Yeah. The kid on the bus who brings his iPad on the bus. Doesn't have it. So, you know, be your child's Google and be
Kristi: your child's Google.
Exactly. That's a great catchphrase. Be your own child's Google. [00:51:00] Yeah. One of the things that comes up a lot so that's, so we've covered over like what resources and how to have these conversations and to like the color zone stuff like that blew my mind. I think repetition, having these conversations, not once, not twice, but all the time.
I mean, I'm not saying every day you're going to say no one's allowed to touch your privates. But, you know, obviously if something happens in the community, you hear something on the radio. You see something in the paper, you go and buy them a new book so that you can have these conversations like books are the best way to have these types of conversations because not only are they learning through the book and through that conversation, you're opening up this pathway to have a conversation.
So books and resources are so important, especially I think for special needs kids. Yeah. Any other, any other things?
Holly-ann: Well, and because my books are social stories, and that's the other thing I recommend, I'm [00:52:00] about to release a on my Safer Kids Educators community on Facebook. I've got about 4, 000 teachers and educators in there.
And just last week I went on there and said, I want to write some social stories for children. Can you give me a list? So social stories are simple quick stories. that are about the child. So if a child went to daycare biting people, we say, when we come to daycare, we keep our hands in our feet to ourselves.
We sit on the mat. We keep our hands in our laps and you say all the things that you want. So what I'm about to do, do is write some of these social stories and have them in Canva. So childcare educators can actually go in and put the pictures of the children into these little social stories. And then they take them home and are able to read them to their families and stuff like that.
But you know, a very good friend of ours, Jenny her eight year old son has, she's got our books and, you know, he actually, every, you know, a couple of weeks wants one of Miss Holly's books to go through. And, you know, she's such a huge [00:53:00] advocate because she's saying, Holly, it's just create such conversations with my child.
But the fact that he wants to go and, you know, he, You know, he could be reading anything, but he specifically wants to go and have those conversations
Kristi: and
Holly-ann: it's a way for him to do it. And I was at a networking event last week with another girlfriend who, her kids are grown up now, but she's got had, she's had them, and she was saying how, she was telling all the other ladies how, When her sons were 11, they'd have mates over and they'd go and get a couple of my porn books and be talking about what she'd told them.
I'd be using my, my book as a sort of catalyst as the sort of diving board into that. Oh, look at this friend of my mum's made this book sort of thing. Yeah.
Kristi: And they're probably having a little giggle at the same time and like, but, but those lessons actually land. So for instance, I know that my daughter and most kids, they're going to, especially as they get to teenage, that 11, 12, 13, they're starting to turn from [00:54:00] seeking advice from parents to seeking advice from peers, right?
If you've had all of those conversations before they get to that point, You've already had such an influence on what their belief systems are and what their thoughts and patterns are and then they become the person who is helping their, their peers learn the correct things and the safe things. And they're the ones that the peers are then going to turn to.
My daughter is one of those people, right? They turn to her and they ask her questions. She comes to me. I give her the answer that they got. She goes back to them because they know that she's safe. And she's someone who's not going to laugh at them or make fun of them. She's the, she's the kind of person who's going to say, Hey, no, that's actually not correct.
You know, this is the correct thing. And that, and, but because I, because I've had those conversations from such a young age, they have become, you know, no one else can, you know, You know, change her mind on some of this stuff. Like she knows that this, this, and this is, you know, that's not okay. Coercive [00:55:00] control.
Imagine, you know, I was having those kinds of conversations around seven and eight with my daughter, you know, it might've, like my terminology might've been different. I didn't use the words coercive control because coercive control has only been used in the last few years, but I used to say that's actually not a good friend.
That's not actually safe. That's not actually a healthy relationship. That's what I used to say to her, you know, it's not okay for people to make you feel guilty for not wanting to spend time with them or you wanting to spend time with another friend. And then when she started getting to, you know, more teenage age, I would talk to her about that in, In relation to having a romantic relationship or a boyfriend or a girlfriend or whoever, and you know, we need, like you said, we need to be our kids Google.
We need to be their biggest influence and teacher and but we've got to remember that we only have a small window before they start seeking it from outside sources. So how about we get that all done before they get there? [00:56:00] Anything else you want to talk about in regards to, you know, teaching protective behaviors and talking to kids you know, any child that's maybe struggling with some of this stuff.
Holly-ann: No, I think we've done a really you know, I'm hoping people will really listen to it and then actually come back and listen to it again because I think, you know, there's so many little things that people Might miss the first time around. So I'm hoping people will go back over it. But you know, just get education for yourselves.
You know, I love the fact that you've got these parents starting conversations now and, you know, I've got an online parent course. You know, I, I was at a school last week where they quite often get in a cyber expert as well to do a parent workshop and, you know, this is a school with over 900 children and they got four parents.
And
Kristi: I,
Holly-ann: I know.
Kristi: I was at a school last night and they have 1600 students and they had less than 30 parents there. It just, and the, even the school was like, it blows my mind. I mean, the weather was terrible last night. There was thunderstorms and that would have [00:57:00] turned people off, but they only had 50 registrations.
And so she's like, how is it possible that we have 1600 students yet only 50 parents even register for it. And because I think as parents, it's very, it's very easy to think not my child won't happen to my family. I'm telling you one in three, one in three kids are going to be abused. That's not, if you don't like those stats, you better get friggin educated.
Holly-ann: And you know, also, I mean, I'm sure you do it too, but one of the last things I do with the parents is right at the end of my talk, I show them what to do if a child discloses that they were being abused and, and two things that I've got is when we make a safety team of five adults. I've now written an invitation that says, congratulations, I've picked you on my safety team and this is what I need from you and if I tell you something, this is what you need to do about it.
But I've also got a poster and I can send those to you if you want to put them in the show notes for people. Yeah, that'd be great. I will. Yeah. But it was [00:58:00] so funny because I mentioned that I did this workshop with these farmer dads and the one that kept dropping the F bomb and at the end of my talk I went up to him and said, Sir, would you help me out?
I want to put on just a little play before I end my, my talk. He's going, yeah, no worries, Hulk. What do you want? I said, I'm going to pretend to be your nine year old daughter. So I go up and stand in front of him and said, Dad, the boy next door, he touched my vagina. He's going, I'm going to get my gun. This is what any dad would.
And I said, that's what people would say, but I'm not going to tell you, daddy, because I love you and I don't want you to go to jail and that's my key. So what we have to say is, I'm glad you told me. I believe you. It's not your fault. And I'm going to do something about it. And he's going. I really want to get my cousin sort of thing and it was, it was just a really fun moment.
But they really realized that, yeah, I, I can see why he's saying hell, but, you know, realistically, it might be your child's best friend telling you or your niece or your [00:59:00] nephew or somebody, because as you know, Christy, kids don't always tell their parents, parents, parents, why wouldn't my child tell me?
But those dear little people they tuck into bed every night want to protect their parents and because of the grooming process They might have been threatened and things like that. So more realistically, it's going to be, you know, Their, their kid's best friend or somebody might tell them because they'll be the cool parent or the cool auntie.
And so people need to know what to do if a child does disclose to them.
Kristi: Yeah, good, good. That's the perfect place to finish this conversation, Holly Anne. So just tell everyone again where you, they can find you because you need to be following Holly Anne. So it's
Holly-ann: safe for kids on everything, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram.
Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, just that safe the number four kids. Yep.
Kristi: And everything that Hollyann's mentioned, I will make sure that there's links and references in the show notes so that you can go and find them [01:00:00] easily. But yeah, what an amazing chat. We went everywhere with this conversation. It went from everywhere.
You should see when we have a, like a little check in or a catch up, we, it's, it's exactly the same. It ping pongs everywhere. My brain is like an ADHD brain these days. So I think It takes a lot of energy to try and keep on track. So but yeah, lots and lots of great resources. Holly Ann's got heaps on her website.
And you know, if it wasn't for people like you Holly Ann there wouldn't be as many kids out there safer because of it, because you have, you have dedicated your whole life to this. And and to me, you're my, you're a great mentor to me and you're a great human and I'm so proud of you.
Holly-ann: Thank you.
Keep up the great work. I'm so thrilled for you selling all those parent conversations. Cause it's such an important thing that we need parents to have conversations. So thanks for having me. However,
Kristi: or however it can happen, you know, [01:01:00] like I just, I just think parents overthink some of this stuff, right?
And really our kids just. A tribe like this, they're starved for real conversations and we need to remember. And I saw, I think I shared it, I mean, yesterday, you know, it's not about they just need us to be present with them. It's not about anything else, but being present and being available and let you, and.
And letting your kids know how important they are and, and that you're, that you are there for them at all times to, to tell them these things. And, you know, you put made a really good points and I'll just go over that again, you know, to not be reactive. Where possible. One of the things that I remember, I, I've spoken about this, you know, when Charlotte told me about, you know, saying porn at 10, you know, I had to have a moment, like I literally had to have a moment.
I was like, you know, hand in hand, my face in my hand. And I've gone, can you just give me a second, you know, to try and get my head in. Cause I was freaking out. I was freaking out. [01:02:00] And I just, And so, you know, even someone with my amount of experience still freaks out at times, we just need to give ourselves a moment and just remind them that they have done nothing wrong.
All right, babe. Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Please see [01:03:00] the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
