Kate Fylan
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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Hello and welcome back to the Kate podcast for another week. I am really excited to be talking with Kate Filen. [00:01:00] Filen? Is that right? Yeah. Kate's over in New South Wales. It's funny, Kate, you put out, I put out a big thing to LinkedIn. Hey, anyone want to be on my podcast? I've had such a great response.
And Kate was one of those people who responded and said, yeah, I'd love to talk on your podcast. So I'm so grateful to all of you expert, especially cause giving up an hour or so of your time to talk about this stuff. But it's encouraging to hear so many people who are advocating for what I'm advocating for you know, just so willing to give their time and to talk about this stuff so that parents and listeners of this podcast can, can get all of the information that they can get.
So Kate. You have a background in DV, child protection, sex assault, and all of the things for over 20 years, along with therapy and leadership and, and basically you're from, for me talking to you, I think you might be a little bit of a thought leader in this space in that you're trying to help a system that [00:02:00] needs help right now because it is inundated.
And it's struggling both policing, child protection, all of the things are struggling right now. So I'm so grateful to talk to you today. I, I'm interested to see where this conversation goes. It could go anywhere. That's what I love about my podcast is that it's so Got no plan. It just goes where it goes.
And we have awesome conversations because of it. So Kate, for my listeners, for the listeners of the Kate podcast, could you just explain a little bit about your background where you started, where you're from and where you're going?
Kate: Yeah. Thanks, Sam Christie. And thank you for having me. Or as we say in Gaelic.
I'm on Guyah Mabel land today, as you said, is in New South Wales, northern beaches of Sydney. Originally from Ireland. I'll start meandering, we Irish like a good story, so.
Kristi: I'll try and keep you on track.
Kate: Yes, yes, time is not of our essence. So, you know, I'm always open to being told to you know, drift a different way.
Look, I'm a qualified social worker, [00:03:00] qualified in Ireland as a social worker. And then about five years later as a play therapist, one of the first cohort of play therapists that came out of Irish master's training. And I started as a fresh 22 year old in frontline child protection in initially Dublin's.
In a city and then did some kind of more regional remote work as well. And in child protection was saying all aspects of you know, concerns for children, but particularly became interested and became forensically trained to interview children where there had been allegations or disclosures of sexual assaults and physical assault.
So that kind of began my kind of journey in terms of hearing and understanding that kind of more nuanced work in child protection and then training as a play therapist, my yeah, really starving children that had experienced primarily sexual assault then came here to Australia and worked in, in a child protection unit, which is a forensic medical response to sexual assault and [00:04:00] physical abuse and also provided therapy to children as well.
And part of that work was working with parents too and kind of seeing and understanding pre my parent days of, you know, what a impact it is for a parent and holding that space for their child when this has happened to them and yeah, kind of really Yeah, beginning that kind of, yeah, window into, oh wow, that's, yeah, so much for parents, and continued in child protection, did some leadership work and then had three of my own children in four years, so.
Wow. You
Kristi: need a medal.
Kate: As you do, you think it's a good idea, you
Kristi: know. They're so cute when they're little, you know, you just think, oh yeah, let's go again, and then you're like, oh.
Kate: Yeah. They
Kristi: suck you in.
Kate: They do. That newborn smell and, you know, just the way they, you know and then through my engagement, then I went primarily into private practice for 10 [00:05:00] years working with specifically with children through play therapy who were experiencing or either had escaped from domestic violence with the safe parent, which primarily is the mom.
And there was also children who were referred who had childhood sexual abuse experiences as well. And it was through that work then when my children, you know, kind of entered the preschool and school system that when parents hear what you do, often the conversation would be at the school gate. How do I talk to my, my children about this without scaring, as we say, the out of them.
I'm then really seeing. From my work that I knew what the risks were, it's who you let into your home. That sounds very blaming who comes into your home. Whereas really getting a window that parents still were sitting in the stranger dangerous space. Yeah. So really kind of wanting to kind of.
Yeah, have that conversation and equip parents. And then moving into DV work as well, really helping parents and [00:06:00] children, you know, recover and understand the dynamics, particularly of course, of control, which has just been legalized here. It's literally 26 days old in New South Wales as an offense. And yeah, now primarily a lot of my work is, is in that space with children and their parents around their moms usually in post separation cohesive control.
So yeah. And understanding how we, you know, parent children, particularly boys as well, how gendered parenting is and how You know, now moms are, as my eldest is a boy who has entered high school, now moms are approaching me, how do I talk to my teen boys about gender, about, you know, what's seen on social media, that kind of stuff, yeah.
Those conversations,
Kristi: those conversations should have had a, had a, You know what I mean? Like in toddler hood and ongoing nonstop conversations. And I, you know, I'm so glad that people are picking those conversations up wherever they have them. But you [00:07:00] know, really we, we know you and I know from our experiences, if you have these conversations and lots and lots of little conversations over a long time, you have so much influence over your kids that When they do get to high school and they're being influenced from outside sources all of a sudden, then they're less likely to be influenced by them.
Kate: Yeah, or like they're more inclined than if to have that conversation with you and then it's a real conversation of curiosity and, you know, learning and they also know that you're Yeah. Yeah. And that you're going to be, you know, not saying don't do it, which obviously in your head, you are going to want to do it, but it's more like, okay, tell me what's interesting you in, what do you think you're getting out of it?
You're going to
Kristi: ask more open questions about it. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. You're not going to
Kristi: be so like taken off out of the waves, like, Oh my God, my kid is talking about, you know. You know, whatever topic that's up coming in front of you. Like I, I know you as a parent and me as a parent, I've had like conversations with my daughter where I'm [00:08:00] screaming inside my head is like, like, what the fuck?
And then I'm like on the outside providing this very calm parent. What do you think about that? What's your thoughts about that? And inside, you're freaking the fuck out, like.
Kate: Yeah, yeah. And like us as social workers, we have something what we call clinical supervision. And that was one of my early learning days as a fresh faced 20 something year old.
Yeah. Mary Jo McFay is an amazing child protection child advocate here in Sydney. She happens to be Irish as well. And she was my supervisor. And she's like, Hmm, now, Kate we need to talk to you about how much contempt you wear on your face. That when you hear something, it's just like right there.
And I'm like, so that was like a big learning how to
Kristi: keep your face straight and not show what you're thinking. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. Clenched closed. Loco. You know, I had the same problem
Kristi: when I was a police officer. I had a sergeant say to me, [00:09:00] Christy, you can literally read, get fucked on your face every time you think something.
And I'm like, really? He's like, yeah, you need to learn to. And this was really on early on in my career. He's like, you need to learn how to control your face, because if you're not, even though you're not saying it out loud, your face is saying it.
Kate: Yes. I was saying we're like tracking so many similar parts, right?
Kristi: Oh, it was, it was an interesting conversation and I was like, surely not. And then someone else said to me, Christy, honestly, that sergeant that just like told you off your face was like, literally like get fucked. And I was like, really? Oh my gosh. And then, yeah, so I got better at it as I got more practice.
It does take practice. This stuff does take practice.
Kate: Yeah, I think, yeah, it does. It takes that moment to kind of go, Oh, okay. I'm making that face. Do you know what I mean? So, and then it's more, I'm freaking out. Yeah. Am I showing it? Yeah. Yeah. And then it's like knowing whether you kind of need to acknowledge that [00:10:00] and say, you know, okay, yeah, no, no, what you just tell me, just, I just need a moment to kind of, I think I just looked really, you know, and doing that with your kids as well.
So then, yeah. It doesn't shut down that moment of where they see like for sure mom's got her. Oh, fuck me face on And it's like, okay, so like just give me it yet. Yeah, so it's kind of having those moments to be able to I can't acknowledge your imperfectness because yeah, it's normal, it's
Kristi: so normal. And I think people like myself and yourself, we've had a lot of practice with other people.
So we, we, you know, we don't react like, you know, we've heard it, we've heard it a hundred times. So when your kid finally comes to you and says something that probably throws you off balance a bit, we've had a bit more practice. Doesn't mean that we still don't not like when it's your kid, you're still going to react sometimes.
But you know, like you said, I've gone back and said, look, I don't think I handled that very well. Or my daughter has called me out and gone, why would I come to you if you [00:11:00] kept losing it over something small like this, you know? And I'm like, you know what, you're a hundred percent right. And just being able to have those conversations to begin with
Kate: is really
Kristi: important.
Kate: And it really shows as well that You know, your, your daughter or other children being able to give feedback to a safe adult is a positive And you're modeling that kind of capacity to, I'm really good at repair because yes, we do You know, yeah, I
Kristi: think for, I don't know about your childhood, but my childhood definitely didn't prepare me for any of this shit And so the fact that I, you know, I'm very good at repair because I know that sometimes what comes out of my mouth is not what I'm thinking, but it's like an automatic response.
And that happens to all. I think all parents are struggling with that at one stage or another. And so I've had to get really good at apologizing and going, Hey. Like even yesterday I had something happen. My daughter rang me. She was, she was on a careers camp and she rang me and I could tell that she's medicated for ADHD.
She was hyper, like really hyper. And I didn't [00:12:00] have the energy for it right at the second. And so I gave her a really. Not the tone she was looking for, she called me out on it and I had to like rein myself back in my annoyance back in because I was like, I don't have time for this, I'm busy, you know, and I reined my annoyance back in, apologized and said, look, sorry, tell me what you want to tell me, I'm really interested, you deserve that, that, you know, you called me for a reason, how about you tell me and even though she was annoyed at me for, you know, not reacting the right way at the time.
She then, we then repaired that and, and went on. And, you know, that's a really important practice in having children because a lot of the time, like they're individuals. We don't, we can't control them. We can't get angry at them when they lose it because, you know, we lose it too. And, you know, we expect so much from kids.
Kate: We really, really do expect and, you know, placing it kind of in the science and the practice is their brains are nowhere near developed. And in terms of like, say the prefrontal cortex for all that decision making that higher [00:13:00] functioning, like most people are really shocked when it's you're 25 to 28 before that's, that's fully complete.
So we do expect. Even later
Kristi: for children with ADHD.
Kate: Yeah. Neurodivergency then adding that into it as well. And then adding, you know, childhood experience too into as well. So yeah, we really, really do. Like, I don't think we should underestimate children and kind of diminish their capacity either. I think we need to do that in a really giving them agency and opportunities within a scaffold that understands that you know, what, where is their stage of development and what are their needs in that point.
Kristi: Yeah. So interesting. That you mentioned that because my daughter is so capable. She's such a capable kid, but you know, now and again, she is like completely like today she's exhausted. She's mentally fatigued. She's her social batteries low. She's you know, I think she might be a little bit iron deficient at the moment.
Like so much is going on underneath. Right. So [00:14:00] I was joking about this with my husband, like this morning, cause he, he, I rang him and told him what had happened. I had to literally gentle parent, my child this morning. Cause she was so, like, she's like, and I was like, and it's so not her on an average day.
So when she does it, I'm like, I have to like, you know, give my little myself a little bit of a tap and go, come on. She just needs you to be soft right now. So in the end I had to talk, I was like, do you want me to talk to you like a little girl, like as a joke? And she was like, yes. And she just needed me to baby her for, for 20 minutes, hug her, give her some space, like give her some comfort.
Because she, she, Even though she's 16, she's so capable. She's really great at a lot of things. She's really confident and competent. Most of the time there's times when she just needs me to baby her. And I think I didn't have that growing up. I don't know about you, but I didn't have any of that growing up.
I was expected to be an adult from fricking seven. And [00:15:00] so for me, it's really hard to stop and go, actually, she's still a kid. And she's still developing and she still needs support. And it's not my job to just dump and run. Like that's your problem. You deal with it. Like I became a parent. I need to parent.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think listening to you as well, like then knowing that. You know, experiences and that when you become an adult, then being expected to, you know, not, yeah, that hearing you saying there might be points when your daughter is 30 and still needs to be for that small moment, you know, I mean, it doesn't mean for a short time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, you never stop being a parent. Yeah, the honor to be able to do that as a parent, but don't get me wrong, like, there's days where I'm just like, you know, done with it. But that constant, you know, that. Yeah, filling them with that to know that, you know, and I've also worked with perpetrators of, or men that choose to use violence as well and some of my work with them is around speaking to their, to them [00:16:00] about their parenting because that is often the, the input and to use this exact, the question that I use is, if you continue how you are now, will your, will your son pick up the phone and tell, and call you when he's 25 and they'll say, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I said, would they call you if something was upsetting them? And then you hear the, Oh. No. And I said, what about if they were celebrating something, if they'd, you know, got an award or they had you know, graduated or, you know, they, whatever it was, would they call you then? And it's a no. And for me, it's that, you know, instilling that in the, in my children that, you know, Yeah, the idea of them not being able to call me when they're 25, whether they're happy or sad or whatever, whatever in between, you know, life.
Yeah, just, you know, I don't think it's not what it's made out to be some days, you know and yeah, yeah, having that kind of knowing now that we can't expect our children when they're [00:17:00] adults to, you know, want to be with us if we're not giving them those moments of what they need in those moments.
Different times of what they need.
Kristi: Yeah, yeah, you're 100 percent right. And one of the things that I think about sometimes is if if they can't trust, if kids can't trust you with the small stuff, they're not going to trust you with the big stuff. And so, and I'm talking small stuff like the little tantrums that they might have, you know, she's 16 and in my mind, I'm like, Man, I was kicked out at home at 16.
I had to freaking parent myself at 16. Why can't she do it? But at the same time, why did, you know, it wasn't okay. Why should
Kate: you have had, why have,
Kristi: yeah, exactly. So my experience isn't, shouldn't be her experience. My, what happened to me, I shouldn't be forcing and pushing on that onto her just because that happened to me.
And I have this conversation with my husband as well. Like he's, he's neurodivergent. He's got, you know, he's just been diagnosed with autism. He's, he's, you know, And he goes, Oh, well, I can do it, you know, cause he's struggling with that age thing. And I'm like, yeah, but should you have to do, do you think that [00:18:00] maybe you, you might have not been so he was quite delinquent at that age, like maybe not seeking those attention seeking behaviors that you had, you know, looking for any kind of attention
Kate: and
Kristi: connection.
Maybe you wouldn't have done some of those things
Kate: for,
Kristi: for close to 20 years. So, you know, like there's so much in this and we could go on forever. I wanted to touch back on the course of control stuff. So you, you've just mentioned it's been made. It's been legislated that, and it's now illegal to use coercive control.
Could you break down coercive control for me? And and then I'd love to talk about how we can like. Talk about this with our kids, because I talk about this stuff with my daughter all the time have been since she was very little and had conversations. So coercive control, what is it?
Kate: Yeah, it's this it's quite a big term when you kind of break it down.
It's something we've really known about, particularly in the DFEE space for many, many years, but it didn't have that kind of concept. It kind of [00:19:00] is like, there's a legal term for it, obviously, like around terror, instilling terror to the point that you can control somebody's every movement, nearly their every thought.
But for women and children that I work with it's around being on eggshells all the time. It's around that feeling of when is going to be the next and look. There often isn't a need to ever use physical violence because your level and impact of fear into it's gendered. There obviously is male victims.
However, it's primarily women and children that are the primary victims in, in the DV space. So I don't want to alienate any of your listeners who are male and have had their own experiences. And my work has been with women and children. And it's instilling, so like to use a parenting example.
So imagine you, you can hear your partner reprimanding your son for spilling milk. Mm-Hmm, . And he's having a [00:20:00] golden really shaming, putting him down. You can hear your son crying and you stand and make the decision. Do I go in there? And step in and say, I'll clean it off. It's all good. Knowing that could escalate the situation to a point that he continues shaming your son and calling him, you know, whatever name and that you've babied him and that you've mothered him, you know, mothered him too much.
Or do you not go in there knowing that your son is on his own and isn't getting supported and knowing how impacting that is. Or do you wait till later and try and go in and repair later? These are the constant kind of decisions around cohesive control. That's a parenting one. Other examples are around your movement, who you're seeing.
Technology has really supported the capacity to be able to minute by minute know where, where your partner is. Tracking
Kristi: them. Yeah.
Kate: Tracking constantly texting I know who you're with, we've agreed not to do that it, yeah, it's, when it comes down to it, it's a woman that I worked with really instilled and made the belief because she [00:21:00] said to me, now that I'm telling you that, that seems unbelievable that it's believing the unbelievable, it is nearly so unbelievable that it's unbelievable the level of, you know, Fear that can be instilled from a look, from a constant, if you're constantly watched, if you're constantly berated, berated, shamed and then you can spend
Kristi: time with who you, who you're not, you know, when you can go to the shops, money,
Kate: what shops you can go to.
Yeah. What clothes you can wear. What shops you can't go to and then, you know, then all this stuff, then yeah, tech helps. So then, you know, if you buy something, it can be set up to go to his phone. So then that he knows what you've bought, how much you've spent. You've spent more than what we agreed. So then you have to sit and listen to, you know, constant barrage of, and then it's, you know, gaslighting is a, is a, is a known term now.
It's that kind of. Constant. No, that didn't happen. That's not the way that happened. So then the [00:22:00] energy that it takes to survive in that environment is just so impacting for women and for children. And some of the children that I've worked with, like one, you know, if they're post separation the children not being able to say hello to their mothers when they're on contact with their dads and they'll see each other and both of them will not say hello to each other in order to keep the child safe.
Kristi: And it is, it is, it becomes a decision whether you are, do you in, you know, start something with that person because they, they're obviously, it's going to cause an argument. It's going to cause that constant you know, putting down and being mean, but if you're not there to protect the child, then the child's going to cop it.
Your mom does this, your dad does this, and and you know, that's a form of abuse.
Kate: And, and not just that the argument is not just not that there's a high level of ignoring as well for days and days and days on end.
Kristi: Yeah.
Kate: And living with somebody that's ignoring with you because they're annoyed with you, but you know, more than just annoyed instilling control.
Instead of just [00:23:00] talking it
Kristi: out.
Kate: Yeah, it is. It's a, it's a real belief system of entitlement that I can behave the way I want to
Kristi: behave,
Kate: And an aspect, of course, of control, which is physical, is in the, like, professional sector, we call it nonfatal strangulation but it's, it's any, when you say strangulation or choking to a woman or a teen They might say no, but it's any pressure to the neck.
So it could be, you know, an arm, it could be pressure from behind. It could be, whereas when we think about strangulation, we have two hands around the neck kind of thing, but it's any pressure that restricts breathing. What's coming out of research now is that women that experience ongoing incidences of that, and it's also coming out of the younger generation of tightening in sex during sex as well.
It's replicating similar brain injuries that have come out of say, fault pillars that have had regular concussions, because Each moment of [00:24:00] restriction drains the brain of oxygen. And repeatedly, yeah, yeah. There's acquired brain injuries that come, that affect memory, headache,
Kristi: not to mention trauma affects memories and trauma affects, you know, cognitive function as well you know, ongoing trauma such as, you know, coercive control and that fear based.
Anxiety that comes from being you know, bullied and, and repeatedly put down and, you know, having that hyper vigilance all the time. It's similar to what happened with me in the place, you know, constant hyper vigilance, constantly
Kate: being
Kristi: on. That's what's happening in these relationships. So therefore, the brain never gets a chance to release.
You know, that cortisol and all of that. And so then you're actually, you do have cognitive decline. You do have issues with memory. I have terrible issues with memory. Now I used to be, I could remember everything you told me and I could easily verbatim, repeat it back to you. Now I'm like, I [00:25:00] can't word right now and you know, it's really frustrating, but I can understand that from what I know and the strangulation thing, I in my career, I would, I would go on, you know, talk to someone, I'd get a phone call, we'd go and attend a domestic violence cause a neighbor's heard them screaming or heard something and you'd turn up there and you know, both, both parties were there and.
When you got to it, you know, there would be bruising or there, sometimes there's no marks, but you would know something's happened. And I on constantly, and this was before it was actually said to anyone, or I was ever told this or anything, but I used to say, you know, strangling strangulation is just one step down from murder.
I'd say when someone puts their hands around your neck or someone touches your neck, they have the opportunity to kill you. So if you're being strangled, it's I, and personally, I likened it to attempted murder.
Tina: Quickly interrupting this episode to let you know that Christie has a whole library full of resources to support you. If this podcast hits home for you and you want to [00:26:00] learn more about cyber safety, abuse awareness and prevention, and how you can protect your children, head to the link in the show notes where you can access free downloads, informative guides, and courses relating to these topics.
You can also order Christie's book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. If you want to join the fight against child sexual abuse, you can support Chrissy to reach a wider audience by leaving a review on this podcast or sharing it with your community.
Kate: I'm so glad you did, because if you look at the timelines of yeah, of it's within a minute, depending on the pressure that's applied is restricting breathing.
And then depending on how long the pressure is, yeah, it is, it's, it's, and it's so portrayed in an essay in that it's so risky because we have the recent survey, I don't know if it's a new survey. One in
Kristi: six.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously that was national. So that's great. But it's our young people that [00:27:00] are doing it that we're going back to their brains aren't developed.
So it's no
Kristi: difference. It's no difference. Right. And like, think about it. I don't know if you had this in Ireland, but you know, when I was growing up, there was You know those little and kids do it now, their little gas canisters that they suck on and it gives them a high for a few seconds. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah.
Kristi: That that's depleting the brain of oxygen, right? They are correct. They create brain injuries. This is the exact same thing, just it's now someone else doing it. You know, strangling, you know, take putting pressure on the neck and creating that blood rush or whatever reason. But it's because of pornography.
We're saying this because it's, it's depicted in pornography and you know, there's no safe way to strangle someone or to block their airway. No safe way.
Kate: No. And it's a New South Wales based but to, you know, for your listeners, they're probably able to Google it. It left no marks is a campaign that's happening in New South Wales at the moment, particularly aimed at say sexual strangulation or sexual choking.
And [00:28:00] yeah, there's Some really good resources that you can you know, that might be helpful for, for parents to have a look at, to know, to have the conversations. Like the thing, the thing about pornography is as well that it's really important to have these, like there's always hope, like I know we're talking about something that, you know, and this is what often happens to parents going, Oh my goodness, like how can I let my child go out?
Yeah.
Kristi: How can, they can never date.
Kate: I'm homeschooling. No, I tried that in COVID. It was awful. It is really having these conversations really early. It is really having conversations that are, you know, open around safety, around how your body feels, around regulation, around you know, that not everyone is safe.
And it's, it's how you have that conversation and that tone. And that doesn't create that hysteria for children. Yeah, having it really young and having the conversation, like the average age is nine when a child is first exposed to pornography, whether it's from a friend, from [00:29:00] Googling posse or something like that, that is, you know, Yeah, whatever, you know and it's having those conversations around but with boys and with girls because it's looking like it is boys that is doing the nonfatal strangulation and the more physical stuff, the more violent stuff in and that's what's predicted in, in pornography.
Yeah. This isn't real. This isn't, it might look like it is on screen, but this is. you know, this is not real and you know, the size of the penises isn't real and they all come in different shapes and sizes and that's okay too. Yeah. So they're not feeling like that this is something that they have to conform to or feeling like, oh, mine is much smaller or whatever it is.
Well, there's a lot, there's a
Kristi: lot of pressure for young people because when I was growing up we didn't have it in our faces everywhere we went. We didn't see it on TikTok or on Facebook or we didn't have it in our faces. So we, we, we were none the wiser until something happened, until our first sexual experience or [00:30:00] someone talked about it or whatever.
And now it's in their face every day. And unless we, as parents, spend time to counteract that influence, that outside influence, You know, our young men are feeling inadequate. They are feeling like they can't fit some sort of mold. I actually had a 13 or 14 year old boy contact me and he was talking to me about the fact that, and again, I think I've spoken about this previously, I get lots of young teen men.
Contact me cause I, well, I talk very openly about sextortion and when I'm talking about sextortion and like, you know, so generally they'll reach out to me cause they don't feel that they can talk to their parents or a safe adult. So I'm, and I'm sitting there going, why are these poor young guys being left high and dry with this information?
And one of the young men was saying to me, you know I, You know, I've got all these friends and I don't want anyone to know that I've been sex or sextorted and, and, you know, I was trying to explain to him, I'm like, well, actually, you know, he sounded like [00:31:00] a, a really decent young man. And I said to him, you know, girl, girls, real, real girlfriends, the ones that aren't behind a screen, they are screaming out for, for boys to talk to them like normal humans.
I was giving him dating advice. Basically, I was basically saying to him, just talk to your talk to the girls in your school, like they're human. Don't treat them poorly. And you will have dates out the wazoo. And I said, you don't need someone behind a screen, like pretending to be a girl, which is probably some you know, it's not.
It's not who we think they are. They're not real people. They're, they're, they're faking it. And you know, but it looks so real that they think they are. And I said, you know, just talk to the people around you and be a good person. And you'll find that you won't have trouble. And You know, most, most, my daughter being 16, I'm, I'm kind of got an inside to this, you know, she's like, none, like teens don't talk to each other anymore.
It's all through Snapchat. It's all through messages. You know, [00:32:00] if you, if you even suggest hanging out in real life, people are like, that like they'll cancel on you in the last minute because it's almost like they're scared to talk to each other.
Kate: And she goes,
Kristi: it's really scary.
Kate: Yeah. I was, I literally said that to my partner this week when we were, we've got two in primary and the eldest has just started high school and we're walking past the, the bus stop and all the kids are like on their phones.
And they're
Kristi: probably standing next to each other messaging each
Kate: other. And I was like, Oh my, cause I had to get in a train in rural Ireland to go from, you know, from there to the main town to go to we called it secondary school. And that was the highlight of the day. The train ride home. I know.
Hanging out with people. Yeah. Yeah. Into school. Like it was like, you know, 'cause then you had, yeah. I'm like, what's happened? It's, you know, we've lost connection, but that's why young
Kristi: people are getting caught out in these extortion schemes. That's why they're getting caught out. And this is why we have to counteract it with how much we talk to our young people so that they know that what's real and what's not real.
Yeah. [00:33:00] So that they can understand that all of this stuff, like my daughter is able to. Critically understand that, you know what, this is actually not healthy. Like we talked, you know, that was just another conversation we had, you know, do you think, and it's not like I sit there and lecture my daughter, I sit there and go, do you think that this is healthy?
Like the fact that people can't, you know, sit, sit next to each other and have a conversation. Do you think that's healthy or unhealthy? You know, how do you think that, you know, what could happen? Like, you know, and I just have the, you know, just talk to her and I've been doing that since she was such a little kid.
Right. But going back to coercive control, how do parents bring this up with their kids? Like, and where, where should we be having these conversations? Like when and where.
Kate: Yeah. Look, I think as well, going back to, and not to panic, any parent that doesn't have, isn't starting at scratch with a three year old, you know what I mean?
Kristi: Yeah. Like, like the ideal time to start talking about this stuff or not coercive control. You're not going to sit down and go coercive control is X, Y, Z, but you know what I mean? Like when you have kids, you can, you know, if you're [00:34:00] listening to this and you're a newborn parent, you know what, you guys have got, Leaps and bounds on us.
Yeah.
Kate: Yeah, exactly. Lauren, take our wisdom. Well, I don't know if it's wisdom, but take maybe our mishaps and mistakes and you know but it is really about how parenting is really gendered and how we parent boys and how we parent girls is so different. And that's due, I'll get really, you know, theoretical patriarchy, socialization And how, you know, boys are viewed and how girls are viewed and it's really allowing from that space boys to express, to have feelings and like patriarchy doesn't just, you know, support and enable, say, coercive control and DV, but it also has impacts in the mental health space for men.
Also for dads as well, there's a way, you know, parenting is gendered, that it's primarily still the, the mother's responsibility. But now we have a whole generations of dads that want to be really involved, but their access to, you know, support and learning [00:35:00] and, you know, learning, how do I do it different to what I experienced, like that is not as open as what it could be.
So I think. That's kind of trajectory where I would, that's my, you know,
Kristi: well, just sitting back and, you know, wherever you're at, just sit back and have a think. What have I been taught by my family society? What do I like and what don't I like? Because I can sit there and for hours and contemplate that question.
And you know, with my own daughter, especially, you know, especially when she started going through puberty and she was questioning why she had to cover up, you know, silly thing, not silly because it, because. You know, it's, there's a lot of pressure on young girls, especially, but you know, why did she have to all of a sudden cover up when she got boobs, you know, and I'm talking about just by, and this is a, I'll quickly tell this story.
My, my, her grandmother took her, used to have a yearly trip with her to like a hotel for the, for two nights. And they used to have this little [00:36:00] Nana granddaughter trip, right? And then she went through puberty around 10, she started early puberty. And then, so she was getting like little breast buds and, you know, she was starting to look more woman, like girl, like growing up and my mother in law, God bless her, but you know, it's what she was taught was like, you need to cover up, there's men looking at you.
And my daughter rang me in tears at 10 or 11. I can't remember. It was close to it. It was around that start time, rang me in tears going. Why do I have to cover up? It's not my, and this was my tenure on. So this is what I'm talking about. When you talk about this stuff and you question things and you teach your kids to question it, she said to me, why do I have to cover up?
I'm not the one doing the wrong thing. Why do I have to, why? It's not my fault that they're looking at me. They should stop looking. Yeah. And I was like, and I was like, I know, sweetheart. And I ended up saying something to my mother in law and saying, you should, it's not her problem. You shouldn't [00:37:00] guilt her into feeling like she has to change because men can't control themselves.
Yeah. On the other side. They
Kate: choose, they can't control themselves because they'll do it with different people. They choose who it is that they're going to you Yeah.
Kristi: I mean, this is just one example and this is an example from my own life, but I'm imagining that anyone listening to this, any parent that's heard, hearing this, you have had similar experiences in your life where you could have a conversation with your own children about it.
Right. And I use real life examples with my daughter, always, always have, always will where, and even when I have grandkids, maybe one day I'll probably do the same. I used real life examples and I would say, do you think that's okay? Do you think that's right? Do you think that we could do it better? As we being a society, we being mum and dad, we being a family, like it doesn't matter.
And but yeah, that's the gendered stuff. Like really sit back and have a think about what, what, what unwritten rules are we buying into?
Kate: Yeah, exactly. And then as they get kind [00:38:00] of older into teen years there's a particular shift for boys. Noble is her surname and I think it's Nicole or Natalie has, isn't it?
She's an American psychologist who's done work into boys and gender. And a piece of research she's done is asking 11, 12 year old boys to describe their best friend. And when they do, they talk about, Oh, he's brilliant. I love him. He's. He's great at handstands or, oh, he scored the best goal he, and then she re asks them at 15.
And the difference is he's a, it's, he's a I shouldn't be using all these curse words, but that's what they name. And that like tenderness is gone by the time they're that age. And then I see it as well in, yeah, I see it as well in my He's just turned 13 and, you know, being able to connect. So I was, we'd school holidays here last week and we'd gone to the, the pool and I was hanging out with the younger, his, the two younger ones [00:39:00] and he wanted to then engage, but then he just kept splashing me in the face with water.
And it was only, I kept saying, stop doing that. It's really annoying. And then I clopped it after when he didn't do it three times, I was like, Oh, Oh, are you trying to, do you want me to come and hang out with you? Is that, do you want to have a, cause it was a whirlpool. I was like, do you want to have a race?
And he's like, yeah. And okay. We went and did it. And then it was afterwards I said to him, you know, if you want me to hang out with you, it's not okay to do it that way. It is okay to say to me, Hey, do you want to come and
Kristi: play out?
Kate: Yeah. Can we hang
Kristi: out? I don't think young people, and I've had this happen with my own daughter really I don't think young people sometimes realize what they want.
Yeah, they don't. So the behavior is what the behavior is a language, right? So it's so cool that you picked up that he just wanted some time with his mom, right? Yeah. And that's all he really was trying to get, but because he was doing it in a way that was like quite annoying, you're like, But you, you clocked it and you, and you worked it [00:40:00] out, but you know, like my daughter does things like that all the time.
Like she's, you know, whinging about something. And then I just realized, I'm like, do you need a hug? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Would you like a hug? And sometimes she goes, no. And I'm like, you need one. And like, you know, and then we, I'm like, is it okay for huggy? Cause I need a hug. And like, you know, and then she's like, yeah.
One thing I've learned about, especially preteens teens, they will say no when they mean yes. Mean
Kate: yes. Yeah. They're like
Kristi: fighting it, fighting it. And then you're like, and once you've had a hug and you, you know, especially if it's more than 20 seconds and you had like, let that whatever out. The mood, everything shifts.
Kate: And having a giggler, but is this the no where it means yes? Or is this the no that means no? Do you know what I mean? So having that kind of, and also around that age as well, is the, you know, the capacity to be not accountable. So it's like, oh no, I did the dishwasher. No, your brother did it. He just told me that you did [00:41:00] the, you know, and instead of getting into the, Oh my God, he's lying to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I get you don't want to do the dishwasher, but instead of telling me like that you did it when you didn't, just say, I don't feel like, I didn't feel like doing it. Yeah. Wanted to get out of it. So it's like having that kind of building that accountability and responsibility because that's kind of, you know, not that I'm saying that everyone that engages in that is going to be cohesive controlling, but they are the kind of, you know, little moments to, you know, to give them those skills that That's right.
Kristi: That's right. Because if they've never had accountability in their childhood, why are they going to be accountable when they're an adult? It doesn't just, it doesn't just flick on. And all of a sudden you, you, you're very you know whatever child becomes a, a respectful you know, accountable, functioning, functioning adult, you know what, we've got to do the work.
But coercive control, you mentioned about you mentioned about, You know, talking about those [00:42:00] gendered roles, talking about accountability, creating that accountability in your, in your, like in that framework, in your, in your parenting. I remember when my daughter was four, I reckon nine, eight or nine, and she was starting to have like, And it's funny, unless you work in this space, I don't think you realize what parents don't realize.
They just think that kid's being a little shit or, you know, they've been a horrible friend. I used to say that I'd be like, your friend, isn't being very nice. And anyway, but one of my points is, is that when we talk about, I was talking about coercive control at nine, I wasn't using that language.
I'd be saying, you know, it's not, do you think it's okay for your friends to guilt you into doing things? Do you think it's okay if you make your friends feel guilty if they don't want to do something? You know, I was like creating that accountability, that thought process, that critical thinking because I know from her experience, from watching her interact, you know, that stuff starts pretty [00:43:00] young, both in friendship groups and you can, you know, you can be seeing this stuff happening in friendships.
Kate: And, and I think as well like coercive control is a, is an adult decision to control someone and it's a conscious decision. However, I don't think we're skilling our children to have and cope with when things don't go the way that they want them to go. So if they feel left out. How are they managing that?
How are they getting that bump? If someone doesn't want to play with you, that's okay. That's their choice. Yeah. Let's, you know, it doesn't mean they're never going to want to play with you again. But it's having that conversation to acknowledge, Oh, okay. I could see you, you, you felt left out. Yeah.
That mustn't have felt, you know, how was that? Or And having that conversation so that they know that, you know, there's a bit of muscle there that can kind of manage and respond to that. But also saying what you're saying that it isn't okay to ignore somebody because they didn't do what you wanted them to do.
It's okay to say to them, I [00:44:00] didn't like it when you did that. And that's okay to say that's not been, I think we've really kind of gone. That we don't skill our children or as adults to be able to reminds me of growing up in Ireland is a very front of shop kind of, you know, you don't say you don't we, you know, we're colonised people that and then the Catholic church you don't.
You talk about people behind their back as opposed to being able to kind of say. Confront them. Yeah, like respectfully. Do you know what I mean? And say. There is a way to do it. It's a skill, believe it or not. Yeah. And I think it's, it's around your intent. You know what I mean? So, you know, are you intending to.
You know, is there moments that you can kind of, or that you let go to the keeper because you're like, I don't want to cause that disruption or that, you know, disrepair, or is there moments where, no, I didn't really like that and that's not okay. And this could be, you know, a learning moment for that person, or this is going to stew [00:45:00] inside me and I'm going to struggle not to be able to be snappy with that person.
And that's not being the responsible kind of you know, kind person. So it's those moments to be able to say Oh, look, you know, I didn't really like it when that happened. This, you know, I felt this, this is how I experienced it. Yeah. And yeah, there's skills that go into work life. They go into adult life.
Yeah. And if they're a muscle that you use all the time or you've started using really young, or you've practiced it. Yeah,
Kristi: yeah. All of this stuff requires practice. Like for instance, no one just wakes up one day and goes. I can talk to people about what I want. And I, especially if, you know, you come and I can speak from experience.
I, I wasn't allowed to have a voice as a child. I, what I wanted didn't matter. Right. Yeah. So it took, it's taken a lot of energy to get to the point. And I guess policing probably helped. To get to the point where I was like, this is not okay with me. This is and, and to learn how to have [00:46:00] confrontation and to be okay with confrontation.
Mind you, I think I was always quite confrontational because I used to stand up for other people all the time when they were being bullied. But, you know It's something that I helped develop in my daughter. And I didn't realize at the time, that's what I was doing. But like, for instance, and this is just like some of the stuff I did with my daughter is if she had a problem with her dad, because he has a different parenting style, he, she doesn't like when he says certain things.
And even when she was a really little kid, right. She would come to me and go, mom, I don't, you know, mom, I don't like what dad just said to me. And I would say, well, sweetheart, you need to tell dad, Oh, I don't want to, he'll tell me off. Right. I used to go, I would hold her hand or I would be right with her.
And I would say to my husband, has something to say. And I would be like eyeballing him going, you're going to listen to what she has to say. Right. And you know, he was learning as well. So I got to give it to him, but I'd say has something to say. She wants to tell you how she feels.
And and, you know, and she would [00:47:00] go, you know, those first few times I would have to have a conversation first with him and say, listen, listen, you stuffed up here, like this isn't okay. I'm going to bring her in and you're going to have a talk and she's going to tell you how she feels because it's important that she tells you how she feels.
And then I would stand there and go, okay, tell dad what you told me. And she would sit there and she, you know, when it was really little, she'd just go, daddy, I don't like how you said this to me. This made me feel sad. Simple as that. And then as she's aged and when she got, you know, I was having trouble with friends, I would say, you know, that's not okay.
Friends, you know, friends should accept you for whenever you should accept friends whenever you know, do you want help, you know, having a conversation with them. And, you know, and I would facilitate that conversation if I could, sometimes she would let things ride and we would just go get on with it.
But, you know, just this week she had a, had an issue with a friend who said something not intentionally and she could see that it wasn't an intentionally hurtful thing, but it hurt her feelings and she didn't like how she'd done it. She said, You know, she did it in front of everyone and [00:48:00] embarrassed me. I wish it had have been in person because if she had have said it to me in person, it wouldn't have embarrassed me.
I would have received it better. And so she, she went to her and said, look, pulled her aside and said, Hey, when you said that in front of everyone, I understand what you were trying to say. And you didn't mean to hurt my feelings, but you hurt my feelings because you did it in front of everyone. Could you please not do that again?
You know, and how much, how much of a skill that is, but this did, this didn't happen overnight. This is like many little tiny conversations in that time.
Kate: And, and again, for the people listening, whose parents are children or teens already, you can start this now. Do you know what I mean? Like, just because you haven't done it when you're You know, if they're not, you know, six months old, you start wherever
Kristi: they're at.
Kate: Yeah, yeah. Start it. It's better to have it now
Kristi: than to like, look back and go, Oh, I so wish I had, have had that conversation with them.
Kate: Yeah. And look, you know, parents might say, Oh God, that's going to be really weird because, you know, [00:49:00] that's not how I've been doing it. I've been, you know, kind of going, Oh, and it's maybe like kind of reflecting on yourself.
Like, what is it that. You know, how's this sitting with you? Are you nervous? And that's okay. So what do you normally do when you're nervous? I do burpees. So yeah. You crazy thing. So what is it that you normally do? Okay. That's okay. It's okay to be nervous. And you know, if you feel you need an in, you can say, Oh, I was this easy.
One of those parenting teens websites, or I read something and, you know, I kind of thought I might start, you know, by, you know, just having a check in or having a, you know, like. Three great questions are, you know, what was something that you really enjoyed about today? What was something that you didn't enjoy?
Because I think we always focus on the good stuff as humans, so that you're opening that space so that it can start telling you stuff that doesn't always fit the, you know, the mainstream. Insta moment. And you know, was, you know, did you do anything kind today? Did anyone do anything [00:50:00] kind for you? And then there's an always, you know, is there anything that you do different?
You know, what would, yeah. And there are conversations that you can have yeah, a bit, but I don't feel you have to ring through all of them in one go. If you get an answer for one and that's all you do, it's just doing it. Yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, a little bit. I think there is still this, you know, I think in a generation we've moved from not talking, not talking to like parents, parents having no expectation on them, really, because yeah.
They were parents and that was, you know, the, that was it to now, like, you know, you're expected to talk, you're expected to, you know, teach, you're expected, you know, all the stuff that is part of parenting. But I think there's kind of a lens on it that comes with those instant moments where it looks like everyone is doing it better than what you're doing it.
And if you haven't had the resources yourself from growing up, you know, just, yeah, to acknowledge that, that it probably, [00:51:00] I want it to be empowering for parents that, you know, that you and I, son, you know, we do know, look, it's a lot. We had so much professional practice and learnings and everything put into us that it doesn't mean that That you can't do it as a parent as well, if you're in a, if you're, yeah, if you're a reader, an amazing book is parenting from the inside out which looks at your own experiences of parenting and how they can, you know, or a great image is it's circle of security stuff, but the shark music that was, You know, or the volume is up.
And that was our code word for myself and my partner. If we were having a bad parenting moment, we'd say all your volumes up. Yeah, that was, again, that's down to God, the parenting inside out stuff that, you know, we all have. Like a volume, but our environment will either turn it up or turn it down.
So yeah, and then it's a non shaming circuit breaker to go, okay, my volume's up. I need to, you know, go hide in the bathroom for 10, you know, for yeah, [00:52:00] walk away. I need to do some burpees. I
Kristi: need, you
Kate: know, so anyone that I see. Speak to that agrees that burpees will, yeah, just, just get rid of that energy.
One
Kristi: burpee and I would be on the floor dead. And I used to love burpees, mind you, but not in the last four years. I think you pointed out some really good stuff. Like we've got all of this great advice, but really what it comes down to is just slowing down and having a moment being with, and, you know, realizing that these are all really important conversations.
And you don't have to be perfect at them. You just have to start them. And most of the time, and one of the things I learned from being a child interviewer is just ask open questions and whatever the question could be, Hey, how does that make you feel? Or what, what did you think about that? Like, even when something you have no idea on and you go, you know what, I've never actually considered that before.
How about we go and [00:53:00] look it up and, you know, like, and that gives you a moment to just take a breather and go, okay. Like panic. Don't panic. You don't have to panic about it. If you don't have a question, you know, most of us go, I don't know, go Google it, but Hey, you know what? I've never actually considered that question before.
Like when I was growing up, this is what was expected of me, but I don't want that for you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like I don't want you to have, have, you know, that's not, that's we're, we're better than that now, or, you know, whatever, whatever thoughts going through your head, you know, just realize that how it was done isn't how it needs to be done.
Kate: Yeah. And my learning as an interviewer, after doing like how much forensic training of, you know, don't ask direct questions, closed in all this stuff that you'd be like, ask the five double, you know, all this stuff that you'd have in your head. And it's kind of like that as a parent, if you think that you're supposed to be doing all this and what have my, and it was a learning myself was to ask.
And then what happened?
Kristi: Yes. And what
Kate: happened? [00:54:00] And then what happened? Yeah. My, my daughter said to me,
Kristi: stop interviewing me. And she knew that I was doing that all the time. She's like, stop interviewing me. I'm like, how did you know that I'm interviewing you? Yeah. But, you know, but, you know, also just like, yeah.
And then, yeah, just, and then what happened? Like get, you know, we, we tend to stop kids from like continuing the story because we think that that's it. But sometimes like the before and the after, like tell me about that from the very beginning, like where did, you know, before it even started, the argument started, what was happening before that?
Yeah. You know, and then like you're getting the full story then, or, you know, and then when it comes to like talking to them about coercive control or pornography or sex or whatever the topic is or body safety or whatever, you know, like, just remember that just cause it, you know, you don't have to have all the answers.
You just have to have the conversation. It could be like, Oh, well, what do you know about that? Has anyone ever talked to you about this before? You know, have you heard that word before? What do you understand about that? [00:55:00]
Kate: Yeah, what do you think about that? Do you think that's, you know, yeah.
Kristi: Isn't that a weird thing?
Like people watching people naked, like weird. Yeah. You know, like, and you know, what do you think you can do if it ever comes up and you feel uncomfortable? Like. There's so much there, like so much there. I think I think I could talk to you for hours. Yeah, I know. I'm
Kate: just looking at the time. I bet.
Kristi: I know I'm going to go to right.
So if people, so you've listed a few good resources. So parenting from the inside out is a book. I'm going to put that in the show notes. Yeah. I'm going to talk more. I think there was a website you shared with us as well. And I didn't write it down. Then It didn't leave any
Kate: marks.
Kristi: Oh, it didn't leave any marks.
That was a really good one as well. I'm going to share that.
Kate: But and the man cave as well is great.
Kristi: Yeah.
Kate: Yes. And they have a streaming for the boys as well. So, they engage with, Oh, they're on,
Kristi: They're on discord. Aren't they?
Kate: Yeah. One of them [00:56:00] streaming platform that they have. I'm sorry. I'm showing, showing my, my age there.
But that's a really good way where they're trying to directly engage boys as well. So that's where they're at. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi: And we need more good role models like for any dads or adult males in listening, you know, we need more male role models to stand up and go, Hey, this is cool. This is not cool. Like, this is how we do it.
This is what we don't do. Like. Yeah, our boys need more great role, male role models and there's so many good male role models out there that just need to like put their hand up and say,
Kate: yeah, and I heard Hunter, he's the CEO of Mind Cave speak the day before yesterday. And it was just, we need men like that.
And I want you standard, we need you. Yeah, we need our boys to hear you because there is really a discourse all around toxic masculinity that it's, well, I'm not good enough, I'm not, you know, so it's giving them what they need to [00:57:00] be as opposed to, yes, sometimes we do need to say that that's not okay, don't do that.
Yeah, but what can we do better?
Kristi: What, how can we do change this? Like, it's not about, and I don't, you've got a son and I, my daughter, I talk to my daughter's boyfriend all the time about this stuff. I'm like, it's not about you being wrong, right. Or any, any other things, but how can we do it better? Are we okay with how it is right now?
Like, yeah. Like, let's just ask some questions and see where we go with it and if it sits right with you. Yeah, cool. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I think we need to do this again. We'll have to book one for like six months and we'll go in a completely different direction because your experience is so varied and so amazing.
And yeah, and I really appreciate every second of your time.
Kate: Oh, and thank you for having me. It's I love meeting like minded, you know, people that, you know, are really real as well about parenting and, you know, the risks and doing it from an empowered perspective because, yeah, I would have liked to have more input like [00:58:00] this when yeah, when I was, yeah, yeah and even as a new parent as well.
Well, like having those voices of, you know, wisdom and I haven't done it before, or not necessarily as accessible. So we don't have
Kristi: the, we don't have the communities we used to. And not like, don't get me wrong. Sometimes the wrong voices, there's some really loud voices that aren't giving the right information.
So, you know, wherever you get that from, whether it be a podcast or following someone on social media. You know, surrounding yourself with like minded individuals is really important to have a better bow at this because it's a frigging mission. All right, mate, have a good rest of your day. Thanks, Christy.
Take
Kate: care.
Kristi: Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further [00:59:00] information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a signed copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Don't forget to join our free Facebook group called Operation KidSafe Parenting Group. Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
