Rachel Dunn
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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Hello and welcome back to the CAPE podcast, the child abuse prevention and education podcast. I'm very [00:01:00] grateful to be speaking to Rachel Dunn, who is a Palawa woman from the Lutruwita, which I've just checked with Rachel how to say that because I have never heard it pronounced before.
I've never been to Tasmania. Rachel, so I apologize. I know. I'm, I feel very sheltered that I haven't been. It's definitely on the bucket list. But Rachel's going to talk to me today about all sorts of things in regards to her her experience working in the DV space, in the child protection space and anything in between, and we actually met through LinkedIn.
So again, another Another amazing human who heard my call out for the podcast guests and said, yeah, let's go. Let's do this So I'm really grateful Rachel for that.
Rachel: I thank you. I'm grateful for you making everyone aware of This important subject because yes, it's
Kristi: too quiet. It's very quiet. It's very quiet and also How do we change the word?
How do we change what's [00:02:00] happening without changing our thoughts, opinions, feelings and emotions around this stuff? And we can't change them without conversation, right? So
Rachel: yeah, exactly. Exactly. And no conversations are happening. And if they are, they're happening behind closed doors and people aren't privy to them, unfortunately.
Kristi: Yeah. And it's a very frustrating space. Like when I was first, you know, Interviewing kids and talking to people about child sexual abuse. No one had it like, it felt like there was crickets right now. We're seeing a lot more conversation and a lot more survivors coming out and talking about it and stuff like that still, but the, the opinions and of everyone else.
hasn't, is not changing fast enough to come out because we don't see the support of survivors. And I'm sure it's the same in the DV space. I'm sure it's the same in all spaces that require a change of community opinion. Now, Rachel, tell the listeners all about you how you, how you got into this work.
You've been doing this work for a long time and, you know, you have a very [00:03:00] interesting perspective on this.
Rachel: Well, I am, like you said, a Palawa woman from Lutruwita in Tasmania and very proud of my Aboriginal heritage and I've worked in Aboriginal community for over 13 years and the bulk of that being in the social services side and DV, child protection areas. Unfortunately, also have a family of survivors of both those things and I find it interesting when people talk about statistics and the one in three or the one in five and all that sort of stuff.
And then I look at my family and I look at how many people I have in my family. So I have I'll just say a lot of aunties and siblings and. So I was not to identify any of them or any, whatever's happening, but a hundred percent is the rate in my family and in three generations. [00:04:00] So I am really, really passionate about not only preventing it, but letting people know what to look for.
Why are we missing this? And why is the term child sexual abuse? So taboo, when, and people see that word and they switch straight off, it's too hard, put in the basket, we don't want to deal with it, like even I also currently sit on the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Domestic Family and Sexual Violence Council.
Kristi: Yeah, right. And we
Rachel: did the work that sits inside the mainstream National Plan Against Violence. That is currently being implemented, but I am also now on the National Steering Committee developing a standalone plan specifically for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and children.
Kristi: Yeah.
Rachel: And I've found that in working on that, people still don't want to address the sexual violence part of things.
[00:05:00] And it's really interesting that it is like, I don't understand how people can separate the two. But quite often, when we talk about prevention of family and domestic violence, the sexual violence stuff gets left completely out. Or it's not delved in too deep enough. It's just kind of skimmed across the surface.
And it's really scary and it's really hard, so let's leave that for someone else. But someone else never comes.
Kristi: Well, also, you're right. And also, like, it kind of falls into that. Not my family, not, not in my, not in my family, not my problem, not my problem. And you know, I think especially I worked in rural regional Western Australia.
I grew up in regional Western Australia. Have worked and, and,
As a police officer and as before I was a police officer in like First Nations and, and very high high populations of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander [00:06:00] populations. And I grew up, you know, with families and friends and still have many friends in the community.
And I know exactly what you're talking about. It is not spoken about because if we, because it's so shameful for some families and so shameful for people to talk about.
Rachel: Yep. And we know that sexual assault comes in all shapes and forms, whether it's when you're a child, whether you're an adult or whatever, but I just think there's not enough, it's not spoken about enough at all.
Like it's just, it shouldn't be taboo. We shouldn't be comfortable with people going and doing it. You know, we're in a generation now where everybody's comfortable with the pronoun thing and everybody's comfortable with people being in same sex relationships, getting married, all that sort of stuff, but we're still not comfortable to talk about sexual assault and child sexual abuse, like, why?
Kristi: Mm hmm.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kristi: [00:07:00] You're blowing me away with the fact that, you know, in three generations a hundred percent of all the women in your family have been sexually abused.
Rachel: Women And boys.
Kristi: Yeah, and boys.
Rachel: So whether it was child or whether it was as an adult, sexual assault, sexual abuse and DV. Yeah. So, you've got three generations of everyone being touched by something.
Yeah. Fits within this awful kind of, I don't know, you know, it's not always gender specific, obviously. No.
Kristi: No. And, but I mean, we
Rachel: know the
Kristi: highest
Rachel: rates are, but,
Kristi: yeah. Yeah, and we know that boys, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of abuse to boys. You know, there's a lot of abuse to boys that happens by the hands of men in their family or men in their community.
You know, it does, and I won't discount that there are some female perpetrators, but it's the highest population of men the perpetrators of this kind of abuse. And it doesn't just happen to girls. It does happen to boys, 1 in 3, 1 in 5, as we [00:08:00] know. It used to be one in seven for years, so it's gone down but then you're talking about your whole family, you know, three generations of family, men and women and girls and boys.
Who have been affected, and we know that the, that, that trauma has such a huge impact on their adult life. Well,
Rachel: yeah, and we know it's cyclic, and it just, like, how do you stop that, and how do you make the newest generation that are going to come up and be parents and go, you need to look out for these things.
This is, your responsibility now. I mean, it's ours as well. We can say, we're going to help you see what you should be looking for. And in, you know, in Aboriginal communities as well, you've got the vulnerability of a whole cohort that are targeted by non Aboriginal people. Yes. Especially non Aboriginal men.
Yes. Where that target, vulnerable, oh, poor you. You know, [00:09:00] like, let's take in this child and show them what love really is, and we'll show them affection, and we'll buy them things, and we'll prey on that vulnerability, and then you've got a whole other generation of kids that are being abused.
Kristi: Well, and we've seen that from other generations, you know, that, that grooming, that you know, paving the way for the abuse.
So it's basically, you know, and you're right, 100 percent vulnerability there. You know, when a child is taken out of there. their community, their family home, their family, and then put into or cared by another another family, another person who's deemed safe. And, and we're talking about foster caring.
We're taking, we're talking about Oh yeah, I was going
Rachel: to say, we've seen what happens in foster care. So we're,
Kristi: we're seeing, and we're talking about removal of children from the family home due to abuse or neglect, et cetera, then being put into another family home and that continuing into another home.
And that is rife. [00:10:00] that is rife in, unfortunately, in our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander family and in our children, in our, in what's happening. And it's really sad.
Rachel: It's sad. And it's, it's the silence on it that bothers me the most, I think because how can we do meaningful work when people think it doesn't exist or it's just swept under the carpet?
Kristi: It's almost like, for me personally, I feel like especially, and I mean, I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone who's listening, but for me, I think people just, they disregard Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander pain, they disregard their, the, the, the damage and the, and I have seen it firsthand.
I've worked in the community. I've grew up in community. I've seen it firsthand that. You know, there is a lot of different and because, and let's, let's be real here, it's been going on for centuries, like, but since [00:11:00] colonization, and I don't say that lightly, but we, you know, the fact that it wasn't until the 70s when, you know, Aboriginal people had a right to vote.
You know, to be people we've seen a lot of disregard for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander rights. And so that, and a lot of people in cities and community, like in cities, in people who don't live in community, haven't been in community, don't actually have never actually had much contact or has seen what it's like to live in community, seeing the kinship.
model of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families. They don't even, they just, it's just another problem out there. It's, it's, don't even know about it, don't care about it, don't think about it.
Rachel: Yeah, if we don't talk about it or think about it, it doesn't exist, it's fine, we can just keep going.
Kristi: Yeah, what are they talking about? Why are we, why are we even worried about it? You know, it's not until you live in community, go and work in community, regional, be around, you know, and see that there's a lot of disparity between what, what [00:12:00] we in the cities, in cities and, you know, big centres, like where I live, get versus rural and regional centres.
Rachel: And there's, I mean, and there's a lot of commentary on it though Yes. By non-Aboriginal people about what they think happens in places, especially remote. Yeah. But no one ever questions why
Kristi: or
Rachel: how it came about and how things aren't being prevented or why there's no mistake in saying. Those rates are just as high in the city as they
Kristi: are remote.
I, I would agree. So one thing that I like to point out is that, yes, Aboriginal, there is a big spotlight on Aboriginal welfare and, and affairs and, and everything going on, you know, there, because we put a big spotlight on it, right? But you know, in white families, in, in city families, et cetera, it's going on [00:13:00] just as much.
It's just hidden better. Yeah. It's probably more like, and people have better
Rachel: access than
Kristi: they Yes. Yep. I had this conversation with someone else the other day. I had this conversation with someone the other day. She's a social worker. She grew up in a affluent white family. She was sexually abused most of her childhood.
No one knew about it. Her abuser was her stepdad. He fed her drugs. He he, you know, he did all sorts of things and he, he abused every child in the family. He was you know, a pillar of the community. Everyone thought he was great. He was the best of the best. No one would say a bad word about this man yet.
He was a sexually abusing his whole family, his whole step family. And what she said to me was. We've got more money.
Rachel: That's right.
Kristi: We've got more money to hide it.
Rachel: We've seen that happen with school teachers in private schools. Yes. Who, you know, and someone like Grace Tame that comes out and shines a light on it.
But people [00:14:00] still, her perpetrator still doesn't get treated like a perpetrator.
Kristi: No,
Rachel: he's a good look. White man, school teacher at a big top Hobart private school and He still can pretty much live his life like he did before.
Kristi: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and this is the thing, like, if we don't have these uncomfortable conversations, it's uncomfortable for me to put out there onto this podcast, even to say, you know, actually guys like, Hey, this is why we've got this disparity because there's more money in, you know, we can hide it.
Yeah. Because we've, you know, we've got better opportunities to do so. You know, if you need to go and see a psychologist, you can, most of us can, or will, go and get a mental health plan and go and pay for it, right? But yeah, a lot of communities, a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people don't have those those resources available to them.
So they're suffering in silence.
Rachel: Yeah, or the other flip side of that is Working [00:15:00] in community for so long and saying, you know, if there is a service that's available to you, say take an Aboriginal health service or an AMS, for example, and it's in a small community, the likelihood of you knowing or being related to somebody within that service and it not being a safe space to have that counseling session or have that help, then that's a whole other barrier that people don't think about.
Because I don't want to go to the doctor where my ex partner is. If I was in an abusive relationship, or I don't want to go to a youth program where my cousin works, who's a perpetrator in our family. You know, just those things like, and that's not true stories, but that's an example. No, no, no, but I know what you mean, yeah.
So then you've got to go somewhere else, but then you can't afford to, because that health service gets all the funding to give you those services for free. Yeah, yeah, it's a big issue. But what do you do? You go.
Kristi: Yeah, and what I know from everything that I've [00:16:00] seen, not just with obviously Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but also with all families that have been, you know, victims and survivors of abuse.
It affects every other aspect of your life. It shortens your lifespan. It creates it creates, you know, trauma and hardships when you're parenting your next, the next generation. It affects your relationships. It affects your. You know, romantic relationships. Every aspect of your life is affected by abuse in your childhood.
Rachel: Absolutely. Whether you were a direct victim or you witnessed it. When we talk about DV, especially if you were a child witness of seeing your parents in a violent relationship. That trauma is real. Like, you know, I quite often look at my kids, thankfully and can go, wow, you're, you, you're clean from this trauma.
You break that likely. Like, I wonder what that feels like.
Kristi: Mm. [00:17:00]
Rachel: Like you only know not getting McDonald's makes you sad. , thank God that's the only trauma, you know, you know? Yeah. or someone, or someone in your family's passed away, you know, normal. family traumas that you can't do anything about. Yeah. You haven't had to feel that pain and I'm so thankful for that.
Like, and hopefully their children never have to, but I can't stop that. I can only parent and try to make them aware of what healthy relationships are and all that sort of stuff now,
Kristi: but
Rachel: I can't control it when they are adults and they may be in it. I can just try and help them. know what the signs are.
Yeah.
Kristi: Interestingly, you bring up, so that, that's probably a good segue into the next question I was going to ask you is, from your perspective, does it, is there a difference in trying to to teach Like, [00:18:00] with cultural awareness. So, for instance, we know, I know from my experience that, you know, the kinship and the, the family dynamics and the family groupings are so different than, say, for instance, mine, right?
Does that make it harder, more interesting, more dynamic, etc. in teaching, you know, some of this stuff, like healthy relationships, like, you know, does it make it, make it, you know, what, what challenges or how do you go about that? I don't know
Rachel: whether, yeah, harder is definitely a right word because the complexities of being part of an Aboriginal community and my girls have the complexity of having it on both sides.
Both parents are Aboriginal.
Kristi: Yeah.
Rachel: Obviously from different families. But you've got that. There's a, there is that real kinship thing, so when things do happen, [00:19:00] where's a safe place to go? Like, but also, you've got very different ways of living. Like, overcrowding is still an issue, even in urban settings.
Kristi: Overcrowding of family homes.
Rachel: Yep. Absolutely. Then you've still got generations living together. You've got nan, pop, parents, kids, sometimes kids with kids, like,
Kristi: so
Rachel: you've still got that really, and in a kinship way, it's beautiful. It is. That is amazing. But in a, in a
Kristi: resources way and in a you know, safety way, it's not so great.
Rachel: Not so great. And how do you tell a child that their grandparents who absolutely, they see. As the, like you were saying about, not just, not the pillars in community, but they're the people you look up to. It's Nan and Paul. And they're your elders. Like, [00:20:00] their relationship dynamic will be the one that you look up to the most.
So, if you see Nan with a black eye, and then the next day she's okay about it,
Kristi: what's
Rachel: that telling, how am I teaching you? Like, that's hard. And, and if you think about it. Like I was saying before about it becomes cyclic, unless you break it, or unless there is someone within that family unit that goes, actually, no, that's not how relationships should be.
That's not okay. You won't learn that. No, exactly. And we can say, well, you would, because schools do some respectful relationship stuff, do they? I don't think so. Not well enough. Not well enough.
Kristi: Absolutely. And also, and also I'd like to point out that, you know, schools, I think we put a lot of pressure on schools to do a lot of educating on things that aren't their job to lot of
Rachel: parenting.[00:21:00]
Kristi: They do a lot of parenting education when it should be parenting, parenting. Right. Parents, parenting. But you know, yes, it's important because they might not be getting that education from home. So it's important that they get it from somewhere. Right. But let's not forget parents. Stand up and fucking parent like come on.
Yes,
Rachel: exactly Exactly because some people go that's not my problem. I learned that at school. Well, it is your problem It's your job all your child's knowledge and learnings around relationships and how we communicate starts at home Exactly. You can't put it on the school the thing I would love to see in the schools, is once it is raised or deemed an issue that's happening in the classroom or as a culture at school, then the school needs to step in and go, well hang on, let's do something about this as, as a, as a culture at school because, yeah.
There's still, I, I have a teenage daughter, so I hear lots about what happens at [00:22:00] school with intimate relationships in young people and stuff like that. It's so bad. I agree. It is so terrible and it just, I'm like, we talk about generational things, it wasn't like that when I was at school. That we knew of.
That we knew of, like boys would, you know, that old thing that I really do not like today and I say to people, when a boy hits you it doesn't mean he likes you, that's ridiculous. Whoever. Came up with that rubbish.
Kristi: Yeah, and I've heard it from young girls, especially If he's humbugging you all the time and messaging all the time and he's jealous.
It means he loves you. Yeah Who the fuck? Decided to teach that shit to the kids, you know, where did that come from? You know and this is the thing like if we as their most Influential person in their life until they hit teenagers. We're the most influential person. So what are we teaching our kids? What are we modeling to our kids?
What are we, [00:23:00] and we have the most impact on reversing that belief, those beliefs, if we have a open, honest and approachable relationship with our kids. If we can, if they can come to us, if they can talk to us, if they can share what's going on for them, if we don't you know, shut them down and mock them and, and tell them, you know, not now I'm busy you know, yes, we, sometimes we don't have the time and energy and I can tell you now I've got a teenage daughter and sometimes she wants to talk to me at 11 o'clock at night and I fucking don't feel like it.
What the hell are they doing? Must be witching hour because the same thing happens here. But they want to talk when they want to talk and you're like, oh my god, I want to go to bed. Anyway, but you know, like the thing is, is that if they're talking to us and they're asking us for advice and we've got the opportunity to like steer that ship away from those Really unsafe, unhealthy behaviors.
And we're calling out unhealthy, unsafe behaviors in our, in the lot, in the people and around the people we see, [00:24:00] then we've got giving our, our young people an opportunity to not think that that's normal and okay. Yeah.
Rachel: And you know, God love my mom, but you know, she was in a different generation and, and that shouldn't be a thing, but you know, when I was young and in relationships.
If I was treated badly, I thought it was because I wasn't there. Good enough. You were the problem. I was the problem. Yeah. So how do I change to make him treat me better? Yeah, oh my god. You know? And then I got older and a bit smarter and I'm like, actually, you know what? And learnt some
Kristi: stuff.
Rachel: I am better.
It's your turn to leave.
Kristi: Yeah. It's your turn. It's your, you're the problem. You need to deal with it. So
Rachel: now my girls know that they're not the problem. Yeah. No. So, yeah, I have, and I've got three, what, like 14, 19 and [00:25:00] 28. So sometimes though I'll say things and they'll go, oh, mum, it's not that deep. I'll go, it is though.
Yeah. You've got to get it now, like, they'll tell me about their friends and I'll go, that's really toxic and awful. You need to tell them. Yeah. And they're just like,
Kristi: no, we're, that's not what I wanted to hear. I just wanted to tell you about something.
Rachel: Yeah. And I'm like, well, no, you've got to be the person that calls it out, you know?
Yes.
Kristi: Yes. Oh,
Rachel: it's so embarrassing.
Kristi: Yeah, I think, I remember when my daughter was really little, I remember saying to her, she was having dramas with like, maybe about eight or nine, maybe even earlier, she was having dramas with friends at school. And I used to say to her, sometimes you're the black sheep, you're the leader and leaders lead out the front and it's lonely out there.
And our job as leaders is to call out stuff that is not okay and not right. And our job as leaders is that we protect those who can't protect themselves. [00:26:00] And, and my poor daughter has had to take on that role. I, I kind of like thrusted her into that role, but she was already at that space because she, she spoke out about things.
I gave her a voice. I used to, you know, if she was unhappy with something her dad did or her grandparents did, I would hold her hand and say, Hey, Nana, or mom or dad or whoever has something to tell you. Eyeball the shit out of them and say, don't fucking say anything like, like threaten them with my eyeballs.
You know, she's going to tell you what she feels and say, okay, now tell them, and she'd say, I didn't like what you do and gave her that voice from a very little age because it. Our voices are so important.
Rachel: Our feelings are
Kristi: important.
Rachel: I've done that with my girls too. And, and because I'm not with their dad anymore, their dad always says to them, Oh, you learned that from your mom.
Like you, you're your mom. You fell in love with
Kristi: me, obviously at one stage, like you [00:27:00] loved
Rachel: me,
Kristi: so. Do you so I guess from my perspective, like not everyone has the understanding that we have around kinship and, and obviously you have around kinship and, and family and community and, and the complexities of all of it.
Can you just explain to any listeners who, you know, might not have had some of this experience, you know, what is kinship and, you know, if you, if you might, don't mind explaining that and you know, what are some, when you say overcrowding or over like, why is that happening? You know, what, what, and, and. You know, how is it that we're 2024 and we're still seeing that?
Tina: Quickly interrupting this episode to let you know that Christie has a whole library full of resources to support you. If this podcast hits home for you and you want to learn more about cyber safety, abuse awareness and prevention, and how you can protect your children, head to the link in the show notes where you can access [00:28:00] free downloads, informative guides, and courses relating to these topics.
You can also order Christie's book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. If you want to join the fight against child sexual abuse, you can support Chrissy to reach a wider audience by leaving a review on this podcast or sharing it with your community.
Rachel: Well, personally, Tasmania is notorious for its bad housing situation. I think everyone's having that right now. Yeah. So, I mean, that's a, that's a no brainer for a start, but it is also, and I can only, I mean, I can talk about Tasmania better than anywhere else, but it's, it's, kind of ties in with the kinship thing because if your blood relatives or your partners and their family and you all want to be in the same area and Tasmania made some [00:29:00] pretty bad decisions with their housing back in the day around putting everyone who was poor In the same spot, right?
Yeah, that's going to work. Well, like what, what, same as any housing commission or that's a bad decision,
Kristi: that's a bad decision from a policing perspective, from my experience, because when you, you know, let's go back to the quote, I don't know who's quoted is, but you're the sum total of the five people you spend the most time around.
So if you put all of the poor people or the low socioeconomic people or the, the people who are. Committing crimes or the people who are, you know in Child sex offenders all in together with in prisons as they like to do it. Right. You're going to have like a mirror put up in front of you that is going to show you what, what that is.
You never get to see the other side. You never get to see, you know, how to get yourself out of those situations, how to act better, how to be better. You never get that opportunity. And I used [00:30:00] to when I was dealing with juvenile juveniles in policing, I used to say to them, you're so talented, like.
They, they were the best at sport and they were the best at things, you know, but just run 16 Ks from police and I'd go, you could fucking run, you know, yeah, you can go to the Olympics as a, you know, but I used to say, you're so talented and you're so amazing and you're a good kid. Like, do you, do you realize how good you are?
And they would be like, and, but they don't see that in their little communities, but they don't get told that. No, no one tells them that. Well, some parents do, but not all.
Rachel: You do, if you do negative things, you'll get attention. Yes. So we'll keep doing it. And that's the way of the world in some parts. And I guess in a lot of
Kristi: parts, this is just not, it's not, I mean, we're highlighting you know, obviously Indigenous and Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander, but it happens in every family.
I grew up in a family and my step mom used to call me stupid, [00:31:00] bitch, lazy. Selfish. And I heard that every day of my childhood until I was kicked out of home. So what do you think I thought of for a long time? I thought I was stupid, lazy, selfish. I was a bitch. I was too much. All of those things. And you would admit to nothing.
Yeah. You're that's what I heard. You'll amount to nothing. Oh, okay. I, and I put these big ones up when I freaking, when I bought my first house at 18, but you know, like, this is the thing, like, if it doesn't matter, you know, but that's what we're, if you put all of those groups into one area. They're not going to see that they can, you don't,
Rachel: you don't thrive.
No. You're surviving. That's the last thing you do. You know, and that happened here in a lot of places as it did all over Australia. And it just becomes a way of life, you know, and, and I guess, and kinship can look different in all different cultures. And for me, you know, Nan always did lots of stuff [00:32:00] for us.
Nan was part of our parenting.
I don't know if she lost your mum. Like, that's what happens. And you all just end up in one spot and everything revolves around aunties, nan, pop, cousins. Someone's looking after that baby. Someone else is looking after the other one.
You don't go outside of it.
Kristi: No. Well, it's not really, it's not safe outside of your family, but it's not safe inside your family sometimes either. No.
Rachel: And everyone has a different role and everyone has a different responsibility and you know who you can't get away with things with and all that sort of stuff.
And you know who you can't talk back to. It was nothing to have, I remember at one point having an auntie and uncle living with us and my bedroom got taken and I ended up, my bedroom was a little corner of a lounge room. And there's no privacy for that, I can't remember how old I was, 10 maybe, 10 or 11.
And I had just a [00:33:00] little corner, so if people were watching telly and whatever, so be it.
Kristi: Very disruptive for your sleep and for your
Rachel: That's what you do. Look, or It's just
Kristi: expected.
Rachel: Yeah. And you don't There's no such thing as personal space, or the thing of, because everybody's house was everyone's.
Kristi: Yep.
Rachel: Stepdad would have people over for drinks, people would be everywhere. There's no safe space.
Kristi: Yeah.
Rachel: I often say, and I try to explain to my daughters who have lucky enough not to have been in that situation. My middle daughter watched Once Were Warriors. It was the first time, a couple of weeks ago, and I said to her, that was my life.
That's how I grew up. And she was like, are you serious? And I'm like, I'm dead serious.
Kristi: That
Rachel: was every weekend. And the, [00:34:00] my mum would never have known who was in our rooms, like, and that's nothing against her. She just wasn't aware. You know what I mean? Like, and I think. And that's something I'm very aware of and I remember my girl's dad when they were younger and he had people over and I was like, they're not allowed inside, do not let them inside.
The girls are in bed, there's a no, it's a no go zone and he's like, what are you saying about my friends? I'm not saying anything about your friends, I'm talking about your daughters. Yeah, it's our job to keep them safe, and it's your job to keep your mates outside. Yeah, they can
Kristi: pee on a bush
Rachel: for
Kristi: goodness sakes.
Rachel: That's right. They're lucky enough to be able to just pee wherever they can,
Kristi: you know. But I I grew up in a similar situation and my, I grew up with alcoholic parents and you know, my dad was a functioning alcoholic. My mum. Was less functioning for a long time, but she still worked. She still held a job.
She, but there was parties on weekends. It was people everywhere, [00:35:00] you know, fights like nonstop fighting, like punch ups in the middle of the lounge room, kids being flung left, right, and center because they were getting out of the way, you know, I grew up like that and I, I didn't want that for my daughter.
She's never ever, like, she has never seen, you know, two people punch one. I've seen it more times than I can count. And then I chose to become a police officer, which was crazy. But you know, like these things are normal for some kids, right? And normal. And, and so it's interesting how it's only through therapy that I've worked out that my level of, like.
You know, that chaos and that is much higher than, say, someone who grew up in a safer environment. Yeah, because you don't know what to do in a
Rachel: safer environment. It's boring. What, like,
Kristi: what, like,
Rachel: on what's going on? No one's here. What are we meant to do? Sit on the couch and watch a movie like this? I know.
Kristi: Yeah,
Rachel: I'm always like,
Kristi: at [00:36:00] my age, I'm always like, what is the meaning of my life? Yeah,
Rachel: but you're probably the same as me now, you sit to watch TV, but you're also on your phone, you're also reading, and you're also talking.
Kristi: Yes, yes, yes. Having 16 conversations because you just can't even like sit and, but you know, getting back to the fact is, is that You know, it is what it is with the kinship stuff, but do you think you've taken your girls out of that situation to create that safer environment and they never grew up with it?
Right. Do you think that it. I mean, for, for instance, when you said at the start, no one's talking about it. No one's calling people out. Here's this crazy thing. And I've got you know, I connect with advocates and I can't connect with people in most of these cases, people who abuse kids. Can be just nice people who you, you see on the weekend and they're great mates and they're great friends and they're great uncles and aunties and, and whoever, but they still go and abuse kids, right?[00:37:00]
I think that's why people struggle to talk about it because the person you know, that adult is different to the person that that child knows. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if we, if we have to face it, then we have to face that, that person might not be that great person that we think they are. Absolutely.
Rachel: Again, depending on what their role is in your life, that person won't be, have that role anymore. True. And if they are someone who makes your life so much easier and babysit your kids, of course they do. Of course they do. Cause they're trying to get close to your kids. That's right. People don't see that, you know, like, it's so, I mean, I didn't see it as a kid.
I saw as well, how come they're buying. Him something and not me.
Kristi: Yeah,
Rachel: yeah, yeah. What's so special about him? Like, little did I know what was so special about him. Yeah. And [00:38:00] how do I have known? Who wants to be special in the eyes of an adult when you're a child? Like, let's be honest. Yeah. But you don't know that when you're a kid.
And so you see it completely different and it's just, it's unfair. And that's probably kids I see now who I see being groomed and their parents don't realize it. And I try to say, The parents get groomed before the kids, just let me tell you that. You were groomed long ago, and now you've put You know? Oh,
Kristi: what?
No, I wasn't. How? Well, it means you have to admit that you're not, like, you're fallible. Like, you're not you know, you can be tricked and coerced and manipulated by these people because they're really good at it. But also, you know, if this is your, if this is your uncle, grandad, dad auntie, that's not like men and women abuse children, but if this is one of those people in your life and they mean so much to your parents or they mean so much to you, [00:39:00] you know, it breaks it, it's someone likened it to when the person is like a stand upstanding community member in your family and you know, don't forget your family is a community.
So they're upstanding. They're, they're a role model, considered a role model, et cetera. They're an elder or whatever they are. And then you come along and they've been doing something to you and you say, and you're, you're basically bursting that bubble. No one in that community wants to believe that because they have a part to play in that.
They've had a part to play in it. So you're the person.
Rachel: Yeah. So you become the person that no one wants to talk to. Yeah. So we'll just remove you because then all of our lives can just keep going along as it was before because you've just disrupted it.
Kristi: Yeah. It's easier to, it's easier to just keep the status quo.
Rachel: Yeah. And sometimes it is crushing, like the last person, you know, like, and even myself, I think it can go the other way and [00:40:00] then you become so highly alert that it can destroy lots of relationships and things because I'm so. On to the red flags, you know, like a vigilant, you're hypervigilant and I'm like, God, I don't mean to be, but I just, I'm wary because I seen how easy it is to not be aware.
I don't think it's your fault either. I don't
Kristi: think it's your fault. And I don't think it's my fault. I know I get a lot of people saying to me, Oh gosh, you know, your poor family, like your poor kid, like must be, have no life. Like how have you even, you know, survived this long?
You can't wrap them up in cotton wool. You can't do this and all of the other things that come with it. But it's not our, like our fault. It's not because how about we put the blame back
Rachel: on where it needs to go? Okay. Yes. And that's what I say. I'm not wrapping my kids up in cotton wool. I'm just not throwing them into the barbed wire.
Why would I? Like there's, it's protection, but it's not [00:41:00] over protection. I just want to make them aware. But you know, I feel like sometimes I'll start saying things and everyone will be like, Oh, it's yours.
Kristi: I'm sure. Like, it's so funny because I don't, I, I used to joke that I'm the person that no one wants at a party. Cause I was, you know, if you asked me what I do, obviously it's child abuse prevention. It's a, if sometimes I just don't tell people what I do, I'm like, Oh yeah, I'll work for myself and then leave it at that.
Because if I don't feel like having a conversation and then getting ostracized, I just don't tell them anymore. I'm a bit of this, a bit of that. But you know, I think, I think for anyone listening, like just realize this, like we both have had well, my daughter has managed to get to 16 and she's not, you know, touch wood being abused.
She's confident, you know, she, she's confident and competent. She knows what her rights are. She's [00:42:00] very vocal. She you know, she's not going to put up with shit. You know, if something were to happen, I know that she would speak up straight away and get, get, get help straight away. And that's the best we can do in these situations.
Rachel: That's it. And it's given them the tools to just go, look, we might not be able to stop it from happening. But if it does, you need to be confident enough to speak up and tell somebody. And that it's not your fault and that it's not your fault. That's right. So, and you know, what, one of the funniest things is one of my cousins, Who was abused as a child and is now an adult and it wasn't until a couple of years ago I actually said to her, I don't know if anyone's ever told you this but that was not your fault And she's like, no, no one's never ever said that.
Fuck what? Why did no one tell you that this wasn't your fault? You did nothing.
Kristi: But be a child.
Rachel: Yeah, you were an innocent child being a child who Was a perfect [00:43:00] target.
Kristi: And that is exactly it. And for anyone listening, just remember that that's exactly it. Like you, as a child, it's not your job to stop sexual abuse.
It's the adult's job to stop someone abusing you and it's our job as parents to stop people abusing our kids.
Rachel: Nothing you do brings that on yourself. And, you know, that's the other thing. And as kids get older, and especially girls, and I say to them, You can wear whatever you want. You can walk up that street naked, and you do not deserve to be sexually assaulted.
Kristi: There is
Rachel: no way on earth That any shirt you wear or shorts you wear or whatever else is you're asking for it because no one has the right to touch you without you giving consent. Yeah, you know, so yeah, I mean it's hard because I'm sure there'd be people that would disagree with me and say if someone was walking up the street naked.
Something's going to happen,
Kristi: but why
Rachel: should it?
Kristi: They, they [00:44:00] say something's going to happen, but that's just basically you know, you know, that's because we can't
Rachel: trust people.
Kristi: I'm actually having this bit of a conundrum now, because how much like my daughter's, you know, 18 months from being an adult, she's going to be out in the world, out in the workplace, out in the workforce.
Like she's going to be, you know, potentially moving out of home. How much, how do I prepare her for that? And all of the things that, you know, I've done such a good job to this point. In most of her cases, touch wood, she's probably traumatized her in some ways, but, but how do I help her understand, you know, the risks, et cetera, without scaring her and, and just giving her some more tools, right.
And then, you know, like the other, as my daughter says, you know, why should we, why should we be scared all the time? Like, why,
Rachel: why are we adjusting our lives to not be attacked or touched or abused or something? Yeah. Yeah. Why are we [00:45:00] doing the adjustment when we're not the problem?
Kristi: And when she says stuff like that, I realize how indoctrinated I've become to the fact that we need to be the ones to make all of the adjustments and all of those just so that we don't get abused.
And I'm still confused. buying into that belief system, right? I'm still buying into it. I mean, I don't want to, it's kind of like this balancing act. How do I give her the confidence to know that it's not her fault? How do I don't, how do I also give her the tools to be able to go through the world and you know, not be attacked?
You know, for instance, I was walking my dog at dusk. He's a little dog. He's only a Dutch hound. Walking my dog at dusk and I was like, there was cars. There was other people walking around. I live in a fairly safe neighborhood in Western Australia. It's a rural town. But you know what I was doing? I was tracking every person, every car.
I was checking every, like, if someone walked past me, [00:46:00] and I do it automatically. This is my own type of vigilance. I, you know, turned my head, watched the person walk away from me for a couple of hundred meters to make sure that they kept going. You know, having your keys ready in your hand having your phone ready.
I
Rachel: do the same thing, and it's like red jumper, white sneakers. Yes, like all those little things and registration for number plate. Oh my gosh, stop it. But I can't stop it.
Kristi: Yeah.
Rachel: And it's just, I mean, that's just my life now, but that's the thing. And I always think back to, you know, when we talk about telling a child that they're not responsible for what an adult does to them, you know, you go back and I don't know if people still do it.
They probably do. And when you, there'd be little girls with dresses on and things, and it's like, don't lift your dress because the boys will see your pants and then, you know, well don't sit like that.
Kristi: Don't, don't.
Rachel: You're flushing outies. Yeah. Don't be a kid in case an adult can't bloody help themselves.[00:47:00]
What the are we teaching people?
Kristi: Well, that happened. And I spoke about this in another podcast recently when my daughter was about 10 and she was going, starting puberty. And she obviously had little buds and she was getting breasts and stuff like that. And she went to she used to have like this little, her nan used to take her on a little hotel retreat every year.
And she got to the point where she was growing breasts and she was at the pool and men were watching her. And Nan said to her, you need to cover up, men are watching you. And I tell
Rachel: them
Kristi: men to shut their eyes. And I, and if I had, if I had a, my daughter rang me in tears that night going, Nan said this, and why do I have to dress differently?
Why can't I just be a little girl? And I, I ended up, you know, if I had been there, I would have fucking, like I've been in when I've been in Let's say Eastern Europe. No, sorry. Eastern Asia with my daughter and my husband, and I've had men staring at my daughter and I've just like, stared at them and, and like, put her behind me and gone [00:48:00] like, you're right.
Yeah. And you know, like giving them the evil eye and, you know, and they're like, Oh, turned around. But this is the thing, like, as, I, I asked my husband recently, we've been together 27 years, we haven't really ever discussed this stuff, you know, it's only now in recent years that we started discussing this as a couple, and I said to him, have, do you even, like, when you're walking the dog at dusk or walking, do you look behind?
Do you make sure your keys are in hand? Do you do this? And he's like, no, I've never thought about it. And he's going off in the world feeling safe and comfortable and, and you know, that he doesn't have to worry about being abused or, you know, whatever. And, and yet this is an everyday thing for me or for my daughter.
And this is the reason why it's coming up for me. One is obviously of all of this gendered violence in, in the news. It's a very, it's a very big topic right now. Again, it'll die down and it'll disappear for a while and then it'll come back up again, but also with my [00:49:00] daughter at this age, that's what I'm saying.
Rachel: And we can say though, that when we go out and we don't feel safe and all that sort of stuff. But if we go back to kids and trying to make them safe from being sexually abused, especially. They don't even have to leave the house sometimes. So how can we say be safe out there or keep yourself safe when it's probably more often than not it's happening at home or at a relative's house where you thought you were safe.
Kristi: Yeah, or you thought they were safe there, yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kristi: Yeah, I can't tell you how many times that I've interviewed or investigated cases where it was a family member or a close family friend or, you know, and this, and it doesn't matter if they're male or female. Actually, in fact, when I went into the child abuse squad, I was absolutely gobsmacked by the amount of young boy victims or boy victims.
Because I always saw it as, Oh, well, it just happens to girls. And, but it's actually boys, young boys as well. And they're just as [00:50:00] susceptible justice, you know, and it's catastrophic for some young people.
Rachel: And I've also had conversations with my nieces and cause they were under the impression, you know, well, how could a teenage boy be sexually abused?
It's not like he's going to get an erection if he doesn't want to have sex. And I'm like, you need to be fully aware. And it's not just for boys, but your body will react in a way that you don't want it to. And that does not mean consent just because your body has a reaction.
Kristi: Yeah. Cause it's a huge, the body reacts how it reacts to whatever.
I'm like, that's a
Rachel: national, natural hormonal bodily response, but your, that's not your mind giving consent. Yes, you know, good point. And that was a good Friday lunch conversation and my young, my daughter was like, mom, really now, today? I'm like, well, it's
Kristi: while
Rachel: we're chatting, while we're chatting.
Kristi: Yeah, but you know, [00:51:00] they probably never considered it and it's opened their minds to the possibility.
You know, when I was I investigated the case of a young boy while he was an adult when he interviewed when I, when I took his case and he had been six when he started being abused by his uncle and 12 when it stopped and he got erections and he, it felt nice and everything that happened to him, you know, he must've wanted it.
Yeah. But in his mind, It was so confusing to him because he's like, I never consented. I never knew what was happening to begin with. And then when I did want it, it was because he had groomed me to believe that it was pleasurable. And that's what my uncle did. Yep. And does that mean on gay also? Yeah. And then, yeah, he couldn't have a relationship because he wasn't, he was heterosexual, but he also, he was like, there was this big disconnect and he was really struggling, you
Rachel: know.
And that's, you know, how many suicides are related to child sexual abuse?
Kristi: Well, I think this, the latest [00:52:00] statistics from the Australian Child Maltreatment Study was like, you've got a 13 or 15 times higher rate of suicide. From child sexual abuse. You, you've got a nearly nine times higher rate of dying in middle age from being sexually
Rachel: abused.
I'll tell you another gary statistic is children that grow up to be perpetrators. and know that they're a poor betrayer at a young age and kill themselves because they know that's the only way they can stop themselves from offending.
Kristi: Do we have stats on that or we don't? It's really hard to know. We don't, but I know
Rachel: of a case, you know, like what do you do if I'm a kid and I'm, it's, it's bad enough if I'm confused about my sexuality, but if you want to add on top of that, the fact that you think you may be a pedophile, Or want to abuse children.
How do you cope with that? It's okay to come out and say I'm gay. Not okay to come out and say actually I like little kids.
Kristi: Yeah.
Rachel: [00:53:00] And you're like 12, 13, 14, 15 going through hormones. And all of a sudden, if you get to a point, because this did happen, and this child was smart enough to have a conversation about this and say I can't stop that from happening.
The only way I can stop it is by me not being here. I can't stop it. So I
Kristi: don't know
Rachel: how else to stop
Kristi: it. And
Rachel: how many of those people don't perpetrate but have that feeling and struggle with it. And either self harm or end up in prison or whatever, you
Kristi: know? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the rate of abuse to abuser is only about 3%.
So, you know, old excuses of, oh, they were abused as a child, right? I know a lot of men, especially, who have been abused as a child, who don't go on that. They're like, I would never do that to another person. Yeah. So that's so, so it's not, it's not a great, but one of the things I did want to point out is there's not [00:54:00] a lot of services for people who identify as, I've got an attraction to children.
I, I, you know, I think about that. But there isn't a service for anyone listening called stop it now Australia. And it's an anonymous service where you can contact them and talk about your attraction to children and talk about how, and they can give you intervention. Yeah. Cause I think that's
Rachel: important too, you know, like if we're raising our kids to be aware and if God forbid, one of our children was in that predicament.
And that's just how their brain works. Like, what do you do, what support can you give your child if that, if the child is having those, you know, feelings. Like, oh god, it's so scary and it's so huge that, you know, we can't solve
Kristi: the world's problems. But no, we can't, but there is an intervention at the moment.
It's very underfunded. It's very sadly underfunded and they don't work 24 seven, you know, they're only there for certain hours, but that is available. And I agree with you, you know, we've got [00:55:00] children harming other Children and which is called harmful sexualized behaviors. And And I saw it a lot, but there was nothing we, you know, there's not a lot of therapeutic or yeah.
Therapeutic services for families who are dealing with a child who is, you know, has, or is harming other, harming children. You, usually their own relatives, siblings. That's right. Yeah. And then, so you've got two, two kids in the same home, one harming, one being harmed. And as parents, what do you do? How do you deal with that?
How do you, and in, I'd imagine in you know, community, it would be massive too. It's like, it's a massive issue because we do see a lot of that. Yeah. And you've got
Rachel: families living with families and then the ripple effect is huge. And I think, like, I know there was an instance at my daughter's school where a child was exhibiting really, really bad, harmful sexual behaviors at a very, very young age and the school [00:56:00] expelled the child.
And I said to the teacher, I said, you should be asking what's happening at home, just expelling this child. You should have been contacting child services, like what, something's happening. Did they not do that? Did they not do that? Not that I know of. That's fucking terrible. Because it was easier to get rid of the problem, you know, it's not an issue.
The kid's not here
Kristi: anymore, so. The accountability on school sometimes, I mean, look, I get that it's not their job to, but you, you need to, I always come from it, from the perspective, how about we find out what's going on behind the behaviour? If it's a young child displaying those behaviours? Fair enough.
You've got a duty of care to all the other students, but you've got a duty of care to that student to find out if they're being abused. It's not something that just happens on a whim. Kids don't just do this to each other without some reasoning.
Rachel: And even that, this child knew terms, pornography terms and [00:57:00] things.
And I said to the teacher, that child's been shown pornography by an adult. You know, I would bet, I would bet anything. And then he's like, it's too late. They've already left the school.
Kristi: It wasn't too late. They could have put in a freaking mandatory report or whatever. So with regards to anyone listening, what would you say what, what are some teachings we can give the listeners or the parents that are listening?
What is something that you want to leave behind after this podcast for them to consider?
Rachel: I definitely think the conversations around consent are huge and it should be a normal conversation that you have with your son or daughter from an early age. And also that any reaction their body does have is a natural reaction and it does not mean consent.
That is one of the big things. But also making sure that you are that safe space for them to come to, to disclose if, God forbid, something does [00:58:00] happen. Because like we said, we can try and prevent it, but sometimes we can't. So what happens if it does happen, you need to be their safe space to go to. Yes.
Or anything, I mean, and that's what I try to do for my girls, but I think it's that giving, stopping the silence.
Kristi: I
Rachel: think is my biggest message is this is not something to be quiet about. No.
Kristi: I think also you'd be the safe auntie. I'd imagine your nieces and your you know, Yeah, so I think
Rachel: that's, they've started calling me auntie Karen because they'll, you know, the Karen thing.
They're like, Oh my God, here she comes again.
Kristi: So what? But you'll be the one that they come to when they need you.
Rachel: Yeah,
Kristi: I hope so. I hope so. I reckon they will. Auntie Karen. Yeah. That's a horrible thing for them to say. I my daughter, it's interesting. I was that parent that all of my daughter's friends came to like, [00:59:00] Hey, this happened.
What do I do? Hey. How do I talk to my parents about this? Hey, you know, if, you know, if this happens, what happens here? And, you know, like I've had, my daughter's had sleepovers where all of like six girls have been asked peckering me questions because they knew I was going to be the safe person to ask.
Rachel: Yeah, and that's happened when my older daughter's had friends over and we've been in the bedroom and they're like, oh, so what happens with this and what happens with that? And it's like, well, you know, I'd rather be that parent. Yeah, same. Even if I have to be auntie Karen, but that's fine. I don't mind, but I think that is my key message is let's stop being quiet because It's not helping anybody except for the
Kristi: perpetrators.
Yes. And one last question from your experience in family and stuff like that. Do you think as a proud Aboriginal woman and, and obviously, you know, trying to break the cycle, trying to break down these barriers, do you think that pulling [01:00:00] out family members for their abuse and.
You know, sometimes that, that will even ostracize you from that family. But do you think that calling it out is the answer? You're going to be done. It's still got to be done.
Rachel: It's got to be done. I can never let a child think whatever happened under the veil of secrecy that hurt them so much and traumatized them so much was something that the adults didn't care enough about to talk about because that we're all they have.
If they don't have us, What happens? They carry it for generations and it just keeps going.
Kristi: Yeah, so the real thing here is to be brave. Yeah. Be brave. Call that uncle or auntie. It's not your fault. Whoever.
Rachel: Yeah, it's not your fault. You didn't ask for it.
Kristi: And if you're an adult, you call out inappropriate behaviours.
You call out inappropriate stuff, you know. You, you do it. Do it. Be that person that calls them out and makes them, like, puts them on notice that you're noticing [01:01:00] that that stuff's happening.
Rachel: Yeah, and it's not just kids being brave, but adults being brave too. Because some people might have a lot to lose if they call something out.
Kristi: You could be
Rachel: breaking up a whole family unit. And you've got to be prepared. You need to put your child first. You need to be working in child protection and not adult protection.
Kristi: Wow, that is the perfect place to end that because working in child protection, not adult protection. Yeah. Cause adults can protect themselves.
Kids can't. That's
Rachel: right. That's right.
Kristi: Wow. I really, I could talk about this forever. I'm so proud of you for breaking the cycle in your family with your girls. I think that they might not fully understand it yet, but they will get it when they have their own kids one day. And if they have their own kids I keep telling my daughter, look, don't, don't think you have to go and have kids just to see.
Rachel: Oh, same, same, because we were never told that as kids, it was like, what are you going to call your babies?
Kristi: Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kristi: My daughter's like, I [01:02:00] want kids. I'm like, yeah, well, good one, good, but you know your brain isn't really developed until after 25. So maybe wait until then. Give it,
Rachel: just give it some time.
Give it some time. Yeah. I'm not ready.
Kristi: I'm not ready to be a nanny yet. Yeah, and I and as much as I'll love her kids no matter what, I'm just not ready. I need to. But yeah. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you for the conversation. No, thank you. Thank you for coming from the, from the lens of, you know, culture and family and we need more conversations around it, and we need to break that silence.
We do definitely. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in [01:03:00] the show notes. You can also purchase a copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
