Mel James
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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Hello and welcome back to the Cape podcast, the child abuse, prevention and education podcast. I'm really excited [00:01:00] because Mel and I have just met for the first time sitting face to face across from each other via screen, of course, but we actually connected through LinkedIn. Mel popped a hand up to come on the podcast to talk about.
Well, we don't know what we're going to talk about. We're probably going to start somewhere and it could go anywhere. Okay. Mel sounds like from, from all the information that I just received and seen on her LinkedIn, she's got a wealth of knowledge about child sexual abuse, the processes, the procedures, the, the systemic responses, the, you know, the system breakdown, all of the things.
So we're going to start off first of all, Mel, thank you so much for being here.
Mel: That's okay,
Kristi: Mel. I'm sorry. Mel James is who I'm talking to. Thank you so much for putting your hand up to come on the podcast. I'm sure. I don't know what it's like to be like, I just put that call out and I've had so many people say, yeah, I'll be on your podcast.
It was a humbling experience for me because I've, I always think, Oh, [00:02:00] that's such a, am I, am I bothering people, but apparently no, there's a lot of people out there that want to have, like, want to have this stuff out there in the world. And I'm so grateful for it. So Mel just for anyone listening to the podcast, can you just tell them a bit about yourself?
Mel: Sure. Well, I, I'm Mel. I'm 40 years old. I'm a mom of four children. My eldest is 20 and my youngest is four. So I've got a bit of an age gap. Bit of an age gap. Silly us. But yeah, married and I'm in Western Sydney, New South Wales. My background, I've done a lot of random stuff, but yeah, my passion is early childhood particularly early intervention.
I'm looking around autism and things like that, but in particular I suppose the stigmatization that comes along with early childhood sexual abuse. I think there's not, it's still a very uncomfortable conversation. And I think when it comes to awareness for parents, for first [00:03:00] responders for anybody that might, you know, I think it's very important that we understand the processes of what's happened and our complex.
It's certainly not a linear experience. Yeah. So I'm happy to speak from sort of my own lived experience, but also, yeah,
Kristi: no let's go, like, let's talk about your lived experience and how that sort of set you on this pathway. Cause I guess that's kind of how it happened really.
Mel: Pretty much.
So I think, and I'll sort of try and line this up in the points that I've made, and I do have notes, so please forgive me if it's annoying. No, you're
Kristi: fine. No, no, no, not annoying at all. Sometimes I ramble on here for a long time before I get to the point. So notes help.
Mel: Exactly. So I grew up in a, in, An interesting home, like I, I had lovely grandparents that cared for me and my mum had, she'd moved over to Singapore with her new husband my father died when I was, you know, three.
So, essentially, I was heavily into music I was kind of good at it because I [00:04:00] practiced a lot. And so I ended into the community banding world. So that's like community concert bands. And I didn't end up playing in orchestras, but I was, I was really young. Like I started all of that when I was about eight.
So this is definitely a message to families that you know, having their children going out, doing dancing and music and things like that. So I, somebody that was there had known me from, That age, sort of about year four. And you know, these people that were in the band were, you know, it was assumed by my grandparents, not assumed, but it was made very clear by my grandparents that they were supposed to look after me.
And throughout that period of time, there was one man that took a very interesting approach and you know, that, that groom started really from that age and went right through till I was 20, until I was 23 to. Wow. So when I, when I talk about the grooming process, it's, it's a very calculated long and planned and controlled approach.
So when I met him, he was just sort of there, like it wasn't as [00:05:00] if it was very obvious at that particular point in time. And if you think about a child at that age, you know, they're taught to listen to adults, have respect. And this is back in the, the 90s. Have respect for your elders, do what you're told.
And particularly in that performance area, you know, as a child, you are you're criticized a lot, you know, you, you sort of pushed a lot and then you do whatever you're told. Cause that might mean the next gig that you get, if you, you know, if you say no. So when I look at The multiple different environments, this person had access to me as well.
It was a band, it was at home, it was at school and lots of different environments, different countries. Like we went to like Europe at one point. And so it becomes really confusing because it's happening everywhere and quite often. And I think when profiling, I mean, let's call it for what it is. And this is, I'll talk about Stockholm syndrome later, but it's really difficult for me.
to talk about this person as a pedophile. It's really, it's interesting drawing that connection because I've always just referred to him as my man, like as a man or an ex. But when you profile [00:06:00] their acts, they're very patient and they really like to assess the child, assess their environment and really get to know everything possible.
And that includes sometimes their family or a lot of the time their families. I find that in my experience, it was that really, that, that jokester personality that he had. He really loved to be, I mean, I don't feel like it was attention seeking. I felt like it was very much narcissistic in a sense.
So this person, Presented themselves as very happy and jovial in the life of the party and was very charismatic. And then just as I got older you know, I sort of noticed that, I mean, there were, there were periods of time where things escalated quite quickly, but then there was a real push pull.
Which creates confusion. I think in terms of how they tend to get to know their victim, what I was saying before, you know, we talk about age, we talk about not just age, but their neurodevelopmental status. So you might have a child that's 15, but they might have autism, [00:07:00] or they might have grown up in a situation where their family situation wasn't ideal, or they've experienced trauma.
Well, that, that definitely creates a bit of a vulnerability. And I think packing vulnerability. In a child and what that looks like and how that can be used to a predator to their advantage. I think that's. That's probably where this person, this person knew that I didn't have friends. They knew that I was isolated, that I was always around adults.
And it was a very planned process where they essentially groomed my grandparents through dinners and things like that to trust them. And I think when, I think my grandmother had a bit of an inkling and when that happened, he then put his children along. So he's young children and that sort of won her over because that's the type of person she was.
Kristi: That would have settled, that would have settled her concerns, pretty much. Oh, well, he's got kids her similar age. So, you know, that, that means he must be safe because he, you know, he's got his kids there as well. Yet, you know, [00:08:00] behind closed doors, it was probably just you and him.
Mel: It was well, well, actually the brazenness of the acts as well were really interesting because when I, a lot of them happened within this band situation where like actually it was a club Willoughby in Willoughby, I still remember it happened in multiple different areas of this club and where people could just be, you know, quite, you know he used to pick me up from school during the middle of the day, take me back to my grandmother's house perform an assault and then take me back to school.
Wow. And it wasn't like he drove me. up the corner and hid, you know, it was very open. So that's what I mean, in terms of how these people profile and how they play out these acts, it's very, very normalized. And so when I've had people say to me, how long did, like, why did it take that long? How did it go on that long?
Is it because it was normal? And, and it started
Kristi: from eight and if no one's sort of, you know, speaking. Or sharing or telling you in opposite to what he's teaching you. Well, you [00:09:00] just take that as this is what happens. Exactly. And
Mel: he knew, I mean, and I'll be really open about how I was at, you know, particularly 12, 13, when things started to get, I would say it's more sexual misconduct in terms of the content he was sending me via email.
Look, I was overweight. I had acne. I was, you know, viewed as, I mean, that was very obvious from my overuse of makeup at the time. And I was absolutely, you know, desperate for that connection because I didn't get it on a level with other friends. Well, and things like that, I went to a performing arts high school where once again, this was all very normal.
It was normal to quickly have a costume change backstage and stripped down to your G string. You know, when you're 12 years old, in front of male teachers, totally normal. There were teachers. Doing all sorts of stuff with students. It was a very odd environment. And we probably all know the performing arts high school, North Strathfield.
I'm just saying because I'm not, I'm not really into hiding this stuff anymore because it's the truth. And I think the more we encourage people to hide it, the more people aren't [00:10:00] going to speak out. No, that's right. And touching on what you were saying on, on responses, like in terms of those first responders, my, my grandmother was my first responder in a sense where I, and this is like, God love her.
Like she's not with us anymore, but she didn't mean any harm by what she did, but I had jotted down some notes in a diary, which funnily enough, she kept and I found after she passed away and she read it like not long after I wrote it and she was horrified. And I got grounded. . You got
Kristi: grounded?
Mel: Yeah, because I didn't name who it was, but she thought that I must just watched something on TV and just jotted it down or that it was, you know, and that she didn't understand, like, you know, my, my grandmother was probably in her sixties at that time.
She didn't. Different generation as well. Totally. So, you know, we've, we sort of talked about that, you know, as, as I got older, but. But yeah, I think it's, it's on that first responder and it's very interesting how that, you know, [00:11:00] can completely change the trajectory of someone's life. If that first responder isn't, because I was taught by that.
Well, we gotta hide it, you can't talk about it.
Kristi: Yeah, well, if she had have done her own little bit of questioning, investigation, hey, honey, you know, like I I saw this, I know I'm not meant to read your diary, but I saw it. And you know, what's happening? Like, tell me, I believe I'll believe anything you say, just that change in like, instead of grounding you for what you've written, just by having, being curious about what's going on from a protection standpoint, could have changed the whole further,
Mel: absolutely.
Kristi: So with regards to this person who was grooming you from eight, did the sexual abuse start at eight or was it? No,
Mel: no. So it took quite a long time. So like, like when I said, when he was there around in the band, things like that, and I floated between different bands, which he was also in between different bands at that time, went from brass band, concert band, marching band, that type of thing.
And [00:12:00] then I would say when I was around 12, 13, when email and internet became a thing, that made access a lot easier. So when we think about what's your TikToks now. Social media makes life very easy for these people. So, in terms of emails, he would forward me emails to, you know, that I was included with other band members that were really inappropriate.
A lot of sexual content and what we would call, yes, sexual misconduct. And then the personal emails started. Then there's, you know, texting and there was phone calls. I was getting faxes because faxes was still there back in the day. And it, it, you know, the physical side of things didn't really kick off until I was about 14.
I mean, we had, there was touching and things like that, but I was about 14, 15, it really escalated. And then, yeah, 16, yeah, it continued. I think it's, it's very interesting that the comments that he would make in these, Messages, particularly, I mean, I've got one actually here. My grandmother, she collected this stuff.
[00:13:00] I didn't know she had it. So if I, I go back to the 14th and 17th of May, 15. He wrote, I meant to tell you on Saturday night how gorgeous you looked, but it was actually very hard to be alone with you. By the way, I know I told you, you sang very beautifully. So he's reinforcing the message there because he knew that, you know, I'd often come off stage and they'd say, Oh, you know, you really should have hit that note a little bit.
You're a bit sharp or a bit flat. He knew that. And so he played on the fact that I. No one ever really told me I was good. So then he goes down to say, what do you mean? You don't know why you do things for people when they ask you a kind, generous, and you're a kind, generous person. Now I'd never asked that question.
He then went on to say, no, no, a kind, generous, gorgeous, very desirable, beautiful, delicious, very edible young lady who likes to do things for people. And then continues to go on about, you know, The things that he'd like to do. And then looking forward to plant a wet one on both your cheeks tomorrow night, as long as [00:14:00] Nan's not looking, then it will be a dry one on one cheek.
Only my loss. And I know what he was referring to with that as the emails go further, they talk about, you know, Oh, it was lovely to spend that time with you. I think I might like to marry you if things were different things like that. And then I then come back and said comments about, you know, well, it's a shame that I'm a teenager and you're an adult.
So I, I did have a bit of that awareness, but. The way that he continued to say, you're wanted, you're wanted, like, if I look at this one then, so not long after I said, you know, it's a pity that, you know, I'm a teenager and you're, you're an adult, he then wrote a few days later you're gorgeous, desirable, wanted, talented, beautiful, wanted, sexy, wanted, fabulous person to share snickers with, wanted, so he stated wanted four times in just that little paragraph.
And then it started to escalate. He'd already been doing things. That was when the picking up from school [00:15:00] and stuff had already started. So it was very easy, but he knew what he was doing. And people say to me now, how do you know that? Well, I asked him a few years ago.
Kristi: Talk about that.
Mel: Yeah. So, and I think the Stockholm syndrome part's really important here because Stockholm syndrome isn't, I think people, there was a movie, I've totally forgotten what it's called, but it was when the girls got held up in a house company, but it's Michigan.
It was something in the U S one of them ended up having a baby to the captor and they, they watched them having birthday parties to this child and things like that. And I could really relate to it because you just become so, I suppose, you know, you're pleasing this person and you get a little bit of feeling good.
Yeah. But then you're sort of really confused too, because this is push pull, but when I conditioned you're conditioned completely, completely conditioned. Yeah. And when you think about the effects of the brain, which I'll talk about a bit later, your brain is used to a level of dopamine and it associates dopamine with certain things.
And that's why, you know, certain people that have been through this can have certain [00:16:00] behavior patterns. So I've been having a lot, I mean, I've been in therapy for 10 years. Every week for 10 years, I've not missed a session because it's important for me to keep up. And my therapist had sort of said to me, why do you feel like you still need to please him?
Like, why are there these comments, like things like, you know, it's too stupid to finish here, you'll never finish because he wanted to keep me. Yeah. Sort of dependent. But I asked him, I said, look, I just need to know the answers to this because I, you know, I'm not going to hold anything against you. I think tonight.
And he said, he's exactly where my husband heard this. He said, I pitied you. I knew your mother didn't want you and I knew I could. And that was his response. And my husband, he like broke down and literally was like, that's probably the hardest thing. Like he just didn't even know what to say. So I had him on speaker.
He says, for me, the hardest thing I've ever, ever, ever had to hear someone say.
Oh, look, you know, at the end of the day, for me, it was validation. It was like, you know what? I'm not crazy.
Kristi: No, you [00:17:00] weren't. And that's the thing about predators. They, they gaslight you to believe that that they play two sides of the coin. Right. They play the, the abuser where they, they put you down and make you dependent on that, and then they play the, the play, the savior as well.
So it's this push pull, like you said earlier on, there's this push, of you're not good enough, you're not this, you're not that, I pity you, you're poor thing, look at you, you're so pathetic, or whatever happens, and then the pull in, I want you, I want you, I want you, you're so needed, I love you, I love, you know, and so it's, it's this toxic, really toxic.
Relationship, but as a young person, as a very young brain, you can't, you can't differentiate. You've got no power in that situation.
Mel: None at all. And when you think about, like, in my situation, again, is really unique. And I think this is probably why the police don't like me very much, but that's a whole other story for another day.
But who
Kristi: cares? Honestly, [00:18:00] 10 years and like, I'm sorry, but any police officers listening you know, We can do better. Police officers can do better. Fuckin get educated on this shit. Well, particularly
Mel: when you've got hard, hard evidence. You know, like there's evidence here that states very clearly what happened, but you know, these, these people often, you know, have people that they're associated with that also don't abuse people directly, but they do it indirectly.
So in my situation, these bands that I was in, There were people from the New South Wales police band, correct? Band. Most of them teachers, I would say probably 80 percent were teachers. And what did they do? Nothing. Or it was things like, Oh, she's chasing him. Oh, you know, she's infatuated because they didn't know the history.
But nor did anyone actually bother to care. I can remember one particular band camp and being, I mean, I was 16 and a few months and being in a room where [00:19:00] there was like his best friend, who was also cheating on his wife with someone else. You know, he was there in that room the whole weekend that I was, you know, assaulted.
I don't know how many times, couldn't, couldn't count. There's, Yeah. And like I mean, did anyone say I'll do anything? No. I was just looked at as weird. But this is the
Kristi: thing, this is the thing that people need to understand. Regardless of the fact that you were eight when he started grooming you and conditioning you to be able to be abused later on.
You were 16. He was a grown ass adult. He was in a position of power and authority over you. Therefore he could abuse you. You know, in Australia, the law is pretty specific. Under the age of 18, you cannot have a relationship or any kind of sexual relationship or any kind. It's assault. It's abuse under the age of 18, and he, he just, he was 50.
Mel: He was 50. He was 50, was a grown
Kristi: ass, frigging adult. Could have been your grandfather.
Mel: Exactly. And [00:20:00] actually, when, I mean, I've tried not to talk too much about this for the sake of, of one of my children, who happens to be out of, was born out of that situation and is, you know, fully still engaged with the parent or with him.
But, you know, when I was in labor and he was saying, oh, that's cute, you brought your grandpa or you brought your father with you. And I was like, oh, yeah. And I just, I learned to just ignore that stuff. And I think that pregnancy for him was terrifying because it was like, you know, I was 19 when I felt pregnant.
It was
Kristi: proof of his, it was proof of his abuse.
Mel: Exactly.
Kristi: And I'm so sorry that, you know, I, I know that your young person you know, it, the second that you wouldn't get, you wouldn't wish them away, but the circumstances behind their conception is, is tragic.
Mel: Yeah. And like, I mean, it's, it's hard. Like, I mean, I've still tried to encourage.
Not encourage, but facilitate there to be contact if that's what. my person like my young person chooses to do. Like that's entirely their choice. [00:21:00] I can't because I've had no assistance from police and things like that. I've sort of essentially just laughed at do I think that it's a good situation?
Absolutely not. But then when family law courts get involved and his friends were lawyers and things like that, you know, then And you were a,
Kristi: you were a young person yourself, you know, not to mention like the development of brains and stuff like that in a trauma situation, a 19 year old might not be a 19 year old.
Mel: You know, and I certainly wasn't, yeah, I certainly wasn't at that time. And it was very interesting to you, I think, because as the police, the people that were around at the time, like the police and the teachers and things like that, you know, I mean, It was all really normal. And so for me, I think I felt very like now looking back on it, I was so developmentally behind in terms of my learning too, because I think that really took back sake to the music, but also because of what was going on.
Yeah. But like my school even said to me, like this, like you're a Kellogg scholarship holder. This is an embarrassment for the school. You need to [00:22:00] end it. What? And when I look back at the emails and the texts and the calls and things like that, I think you were asking a 15, 16 year old to end this. Are you joking?
And so I left and went to the con high actually. And look, they, they knew to a point, but I remember my economics teacher being such a lovely man, the Asian guy, and just, he used to know how to deal with it. And so he used to buy a pack of the Tim Tams. And I think he was just trying to build rapport. And I look back at now and think, You poor man, because technically speaking, he was doing the same as what I was used to before.
I was used to someone, you know, buying things. Yeah. But I, but now as an adult, I see the difference of what he was trying to do. He was actually just trying to help in his own way. I think, yeah, those, those things really made it difficult. And when you talk about it,
Kristi: when you don't have any safe adults around or anyone who's modeling, like what a safe adult should do, you know, it's okay to have [00:23:00] relationships with adults that are, which are nurturing.
Right.
Mel: But,
Kristi: and it's important, but if no one's actually modeling That safe adults don't go and you know, touch people inappropriately. They don't, you know, gaslight the shit out of them and all of that stuff. Then you think that that's normal.
Mel: Absolutely. Well, I mean, I think the biggest part for me, and these are my son's godparents.
So it's very difficult to talk about. They're very high profile people. Their child is like a daughter's very high profile. And I remember one particular night at their home, there was a spa. Lots of police van people in there, one or two of them actually in this far. And, you know, I remember my mum got there because my mum must have been back from overseas at that point.
And she came to pick me up and the wife came running out. And like her two children are asleep, mind you, upstairs. And her mother, who was elderly, and she came running. I was mum's here. And she got me out because I had nothing on. She knew
Kristi: something was wrong.
Mel: And she's wrapping his towel around because I was naked.
I mean, I knew something [00:24:00] was wrong. I felt very uncomfortable that night. I still remember so many details. It's incredible how your brain just stores detail. And, you know, and she lied to my mom, like my mom said, Oh, did she have a cosy? I don't know why she bought a cosy with her. Cause it was. Yeah. Not like spa weather.
And she said, I know she used mine. And I remember later on calling her when I was going through a hard time when I was young, the person's getting kicked out of this school and whatnot. And she literally said, I'll call the kids help line.
Kristi: Your mom said that,
Mel: or this woman, this woman. And I remember thinking, that's really like, I was so confused because she'd had me in her
Kristi: home.
So she facilitated the abuse of you. She was a facilitator of that abuse. Basically a witness to the abuse. Absolutely. And she, and so you're, and you were under the age of 18, I take it, but at the, at this party. And so she's facilitated it and she knew it was wrong because she wouldn't have come freaking flying in to come and get you.
I
Mel: was barely 16. Yeah.
Kristi: Holy [00:25:00] shit.
Mel: With a bunch of adult men, including her husband and I just
Kristi: fucking joke.
Mel: Well, I remember thinking, you know, but why won't you help me? Like, cause you know, essentially it was one of those situations, but that's what I mean. It's normal, right? It's normalized. And I, you know, another teacher at the time, remember on that band camp, they'd been feeding me up with like VB and like a lot of alcohol and she's trying to sober me up on the way home before I get, got home to my grandmother.
And I'm thinking to myself now, I'm probably her age now and I'm thinking, I couldn't imagine as a grown adult, how on earth that you would. Reconcile that in your brain and, and over time, I have tried to talk to some of these people who at times say, Oh, you're such a waste of a talent. Like, I can't believe you're not playing your instrument.
You're not singing anymore. And it's like, well, it's not like you lot do, you know, a lot to help. Like I, you didn't try and save me. No, and they avoid me. Now they look at me. If I see them out at an [00:26:00] event or something, the way like the looks that I get is just, and it's guilt, like,
Kristi: yeah, 100%. I can tell you that it would be guilt and it would be that when they see you, they know that they did, they, they didn't do the right thing and that they, they were cowards and that is what it comes down to.
The amount of people that could have stepped in and protected you and didn't protect you, you know, and, and I'm not sure if you're going to cover this, but I'd imagine this plays a part of it, you know, whilst you're going along with this you know, like you Stockholm Syndrome stuff, right? Trying to, I mean, this person had so much control over you.
And he, he had groomed you from a very little girl to have this control of you. So it's not like people, I mean, explain it Mel, cause people are going to say, well, why didn't you say something? Why didn't you go to someone? Why didn't you say no?
Mel: So it was really interesting because throughout that period of time, I not only had him doing what he's [00:27:00] doing, but his ex partner who I've got a lot that I can say, but I won't.
So she starts to call, I said, he, he'd made me feel a bit sorry for him and said, you know, that she was, you know, with some 17 year old that she'd taken him, whatever, and made himself out to be a victim. Well, she started bringing my family home and at all hours of the night and saying things like, you know, I'm going to tell your grandmother and this and I'm already thinking.
But what's she going to say, like, like, I couldn't understand why anyone would be getting in trouble because it was so normal because he was bringing me in my home during, during the day and picking us, you know, from school and whatnot. And she then incited a lot of fear. Like I remember being that terrified of her and her strange way of like, she wanted, you know, said be nice to me one day, but then be awful the next.
And I used to unplug the phone. And so for me, it was sort of like, well, all this stuff seemed very normal, but then I had this. And was reading, like threatening me and saying all these things. And it was just such a confusing time. And I now look back and think, I don't know how on earth I pulled off the [00:28:00] performance that I did at school.
And you know, the gigs that I was doing because of the amount of pressure that I was under, but that I was essentially living in a complete and utter. trauma response every single day of the week. Like my poor amygdala must've been on fire, but also very confused because my poor prefrontal cortex, which by the way, you know, doesn't develop.
And this is, this is where I get frustrated with police and frustrated with people that don't have trauma informed training. Cause I always say, you know, when I was at work, I used to own a childcare center. I'd say to the team, Put up your hand if you're under 25 and, you know, literally three quarters of the room would come up and I'd say, well, you know, it's actually your job to be impulsive, indecisive, be a bit moody from time to time, and still be really understanding, trying to grasp what's going on.
Because my prefrontal cortex at that time had not fully developed. My dopamine center was being filled with strange input. That wasn't normal and was not developmentally appropriate. And my brain had already been damaged from [00:29:00] the inappropriate content, the sexual misconduct and the things that have physically started happening.
And you throw on puberty to that too. You throw on trying to be accepted and all this adult criticism, not having any peers that really were in your circle. And any peers I did have were actually probably being abused too, which I've come to know now. They were like my brain at that particular time said to me, this person's telling me I'm wanted.
He's telling me I'm gorgeous. I'm beautiful. How lovely my voice is. He's saying he wants to spend time with me like. You don't know. And, and I had a parent that said, you never, ever say no to an adult because Melanie, you're going to be, you're going to be famous. And if you say no, no to anyone, that could be your whole career gone.
So you've got to look at the messages that some that a child's getting, this is why it's not just about age. There are so many contributing factors. You like women go undiagnosed with autism, you know, into like, often it's diagnosed after they've had children. [00:30:00]
Kristi: Yeah.
Mel: You know, it comes like, I often say, particularly with early childhood, is it ADHD or is it CPTSD?
Like I got diagnosed just after all that started ADHD diagnosis that gave my parents a great out for all the signs that I was showing the anger, the slamming of the doors, the isolation, the unpredictable behavior.
Kristi: Yeah. But trauma actually mimics ADHD.
Mel: Thank you. It presents very similarly to ADHD. So I don't believe I actually truly, like I say, I have ADHD, but my internal, like I I suppose dysregulation when I'm feeling uncomfortable.
I know that that's, it's just a trauma response. So as a young person, you're living in that situation of fight, flight fear, but also the fawning.
Kristi: I know, that's what I was, I was right
Mel: through that.
Kristi: I, you, every time you were talking about stuff, I was like, yeah, that was all fawning.
Mel: It's a fawn. Yeah. And I still do it.
Like
Kristi: I [00:31:00] still, yeah, it's a natural response.
Mel: Yeah. And it's like, it's people pleasing. There's lots of different ways. Like I'll never forget. And I'll, I'll digress on this one. I had a little girl that came into our center a few years ago and this, this little girl just, I couldn't and unlike me not to warm straight away.
And it was. Oh, you know, hello, my name's da, da, da, da, da. Do you like this and do that? And I love this and da, da, da, da, da, and lots of touchy feeling. And this little person just sought connection so much and the way that she, and I realized, you know, a couple of times after meeting her, that she actually was such a representation of probably me at the time and that she was just fawning for connection because that was and so straight away then is, you know, the person that's got some insight around this.
I was like, okay, cool. I know exactly what to do here. I'm going to find the things that she's interested with. I'm going to sit and be really cool, dull, and boring, and just give her space. To feel like she belonged, give her [00:32:00] connection that's not over the top. Cause that's about the worst thing that you can do with children that have been, you know, sort of groomed or children that have had trauma.
If you're really over the top about it, it just sometimes reinforces. And I think just, just taking the child's cue, just under observing, the biggest thing that you can do is observe. And if it's your own child and you're looking at, if you're thinking, gosh, you know, and my son didn't normally. You know, refuse school or, you know, gosh, I've just noticed they're just not eating or they're all of a sudden just in their room all the time.
Like if you're really noticing changes. It's just the first thing to do is to observe, start to look for patterns. And then, you know, I think from the earliest of ages, if you possibly can do this from the very beginning, encourage that real open, honest conversation and that you are not going to be in trouble for making a mistake.
Yeah, exactly. You know, really drumming into, you know, if you make a mistake, you know, I mean, I think one of my [00:33:00] children now says, Oh my God, mom, when you go down that whole disappointed line, he said, I'd actually rather you completely lose it because he said that whole disappointed thing is way worse.
Kristi: I know my daughter's exactly the same cause she's like, you, she, she's like, I don't want you to be mad at me because you're never mad at me.
And just like when, when you get mad, it's like, it breaks my heart. Yeah. Yeah.
Mel: Yeah. Yeah,
Kristi: I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'm never mad. I'm just frustrated. And that's my fault. Like, if I'm the one showing you those, like, that's for me to deal with, not for you. That's not your choice. Your job is not to make me feel happy.
And, and, you know, all of these things. It's my job to do that.
Mel: Exactly. Yeah. And
Kristi: I think also ensuring
Mel: that your children have fun. Not just yourself as a protective factor. I think that could be really like, obviously, it's awesome if you're a protective parent, like I'm probably a helicopter, but, you know, at the end of the day, like I hear you talking about, I think you were with one of your kids the other day and said, do you have trust issues because of your experience?
And I sort of laughed, but I think, you know, for your children to have [00:34:00] multiple protective factors in their life.
Kristi: Yeah. As many as you can.
Mel: Exactly, and encourage them to have those chats because at least they've got safe people to talk to. Yeah. And, and I, I, I, Someone can be a teacher. It doesn't mean that they're trustworthy.
It does not mean that because you are part of law enforcement, whether you're a teacher, education, you know, there are a lot of people that seek those positions because there's something that they're trying to fulfill a need within themselves. And absolutely people like myself do go into these fields because of our experience, we want to create change.
However, I will say this too, to other people that have had my experience, robust supervision. Go to counseling, do the work on yourself, be compliant with medication or anything you need to, and self care, self care, self care.
Kristi: Yeah, because
Mel: you'll burn out
Kristi: and you'll, you'll fry and you're like scrambled eggs at the end of the day or end of the thing.
And then how do you serve your family after that?
Tina: [00:35:00] Quickly interrupting this episode to let you know that Christie has a whole library full of resources to support you. If this podcast hits home for you and you want to learn more about cyber safety, abuse awareness and prevention, and how you can protect your children, head to the link in the show notes where you can access free downloads, informative guides, and courses relating to these topics.
You can also order Christie's book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. If you want to join the fight against child sexual abuse, you can support Chrissy to reach a wider audience by leaving a review on this podcast or sharing it with your community.
Mel: Exactly. And your judgment does become impaired. Like I recently had the children's guardian actually say to me, you know, do you think that your trauma you know, impacts your judgment? I'm like, that's actually a really, really good question. Of course it would from time to time because I am hyper vigilant.
And I don't, I I don't look at that as a negative thing. I feel like I'm very much more
Kristi: aware.
Mel: I look at the subtleties [00:36:00] that things that the subtleties that people probably don't notice. And I have a mind now that's very I love to investigate. Curious. Well, yeah. Very curious. And I, I don't know, I just,
Kristi: I want to know the why of everything.
So if something pops up, I'm like, well, why is that happening? Why are they doing that? Why is that behavior showing up? Why it's, it's almost, it can be exhausting because you spend a lot of time thinking about things. But at the same time, I feel like it's almost a good thing because we're not taking everything on face value.
Oh, absolutely. So, I just, like, your story is so unique it's not, like, a lot of these situations happen in families, right? Like, abuse happens a lot in families so there's a lot of different things going on in a family situation, but this is the, what I would say is the typical coach slash coach. that, that position of authority or power [00:37:00] over a child position.
And it's just like, I'd imagine that, you know, as you said, you know, people in music and arts, it's a very common thing to happen. You've made comment about it a couple of times about like, I know that all my peers, not all of them, but I'm sure a lot of those peers were being abused. It was normalized. It was the, it's almost like they flock together.
Yeah. Really they do because you went to parties with people who just watched it and thought it was not like, well, what, what, what, and did nothing like I couldn't even live with myself if I sat there and watch that.
Mel: Yeah. I think that's when it comes out. I love to talk about like the first, there's first responders, there's bystanders, and then there's what I call active participants.
Now, active participation in my understanding in my very little limited legal knowledge, but active participation, you can also be charged with that too. And you know, Party to the
Kristi: offense. Thanks. Thanks.
Mel: Exactly. So for me, a first responder for me would be, you know, say my friends that I might have told or like, and a first responder can be say an early childhood [00:38:00] educator a teacher, a friend, or somebody that, you know, you might not tell until you're 40 or 50.
A first responder could be, you know, Law enforcement, because you finally just, you know, or you've offended because the trajectory of your life has gotten so bad. You might be relying on substances to get through and something's happened. You know, when I look at bystanders, I think, okay, my, my, You know, his, his sister in law was a great example of a bystander.
She walked into the house one day, she said, who are you? And I said, I live here. Who are you? I was 17, just 17. And she told me later on in life that, and like, you know, I look at her situation and I, I know why she did what she did. And she said, yeah, I remember seeing HSC schedule on the fridge and she, but he had told them that I was a teacher and whatnot.
And clearly I, I was not, I was 17 and in school. And what did she do about it? And then later on down the track, when my husband had a conversation with her, she, she said, well, she must've wanted it or she would have left. [00:39:00] It's like, you had children that you used to leave with me to babysit. Like I was, I was also a convenient, very convenient babysitter for his ex partner.
So they're the bystanders. And then the active participants, you know, I, I look at those people I was saying before they are party to what happened. They, they observed it. And some people. Like, I mean, one of them is an assistant commissioner with corrective, like New South Wales corrective services at the moment and running the band, like he was more than well aware.
And that
Kristi: makes my stomach curl. It makes my stomach turn. Why do you think, like, you think you've alluded to it, right? And. Like, all of these people sat by and allowed it, they stood by, they didn't say anything. Why do you, I mean, I don't know if this is something that you've considered or even thought about or talked about, but why do you think that for victims of abuse and, you know, you were 17, you're not an adult, regardless of [00:40:00] the age of consent legislation.
Well, I was 15 when, like, I mean, it started.
Mel: This is, well, younger when the touching started, but you know, if you want to talk, I don't know, I'm going to go into detail. If you want to talk about penetration, there's different forms of penetration and it's different forms. Penetration is
Kristi: penetration.
Mel: Yeah.
And certain, certain parts of penetration happened before the age of 16. And I remember at those times feeling so, and in my home, like that's where it started in my home. On my bed in my safe space. So then when you say, why didn't you speak up? It's like, well, it was happening at school in my home. It was happening in all my safe spaces.
So it became very difficult then too, because everywhere was, you know, now I look back and think everyone was actually really unsafe, but you know, it's just one of those situations that you, you're not, you're, you're not able to give consent at that age. And when the age is 32, 33 years, which it was. Like that, that's also a [00:41:00] huge gap, huge gap.
Kristi: No one can sit here and tell me that you wanted it like for fuck's sake. Like I, it pisses me off when people say that, like, no child wants to be fricking in a relationship with a 33 year old, they want to be in relationships with people that are the same, similar, same or similar age, sadly sadly, my mum was in a relationship with my dad from the age of 15 and he was 23 years older.
So I kind of can relate. They had a very interesting, I mean, my dad is, and my mom is still still alive, not together. I haven't been together for a long time. There was a 23 year age gap. And I look at that and if, and I've had conversations with my mom about it and she was like, I just wanted to escape my life.
Mel: Yeah.
Kristi: And he was, he was the easiest person to like escape with. And my dad was like, Oh, you know, like he didn't think, but you know, we're talking the late seventies then.
Mel: It's a very. Yeah. And I
Kristi: have people argue with me on Tik Tok, [00:42:00] especially, I mean you know, when I talk about age gaps and talk about, you know, age of consent and, you know, but you know, a 15 year old with a 23 year old, for instance, well, first of all, like, instead of going, what's, you know, a 15 year old, well, you know, she must want it.
How about we go, why the fuck is a 23 year old with a 15 year old? What's wrong with them?
Mel: Well, and in my case, he was 49 when I was 15. What's wrong with him? He's a pedophile. I mean, yeah, like, I'm, I'm 40 now. And I, like, it's just, it's, like, I can't even, it's just so bizarre. Like, I, I don't understand it.
And, and I think there's something that. They're great need for self gratification and yeah, it's, it's, it's an illness of some description. Like I don't, I, I tend to not even go there because that just helps people make excuses for the behavior and there is no excuse at all for it. And. I mean, I [00:43:00] look at how my life's been changed and like, I mean, this is only just one abuse story that I've told you from like one abuse journey of mine.
But you know, cause essentially I was handed over to another one after that. But at the end of the day, you know, I feel like look, systems, systems have a lot to answer for in this situation as well. You know what I mean? I've had DCJ caseworkers and say things like, Oh, well, it's the abuse that often becomes the abuser.
You know, I mean, I've had like that question of all, you know, how long could it possibly have gone on. Like, how did it go on that long? It's like, well, it started very early. Or things like, oh, you had daddy issues because you didn't have a father. Actually, I had a grandfather that I called dad that was very stable in my life and was, you know,
Kristi: Hang on a second.
Who gives a fuck if you have daddy issues? You're a child.
Mel: Pretty much.
Kristi: Like, we need to stop putting blame on victims and start realising that you didn't go seeking out that relationship, you didn't start the grooming process, you didn't groom the offender.
Mel: And like, [00:44:00] when you, when you call, I mean, I, I mean, I, yeah, I've called it a relationship of course, but it wasn't a relationship, it was abuse.
And I think this is where, as a victim, the Stockholm Syndrome part comes in because that was my first experience. You know, that was, and he, I'll never forget after the first like proper time, if you want to call out the comment about, you know, like, Oh, it's. Absolutely utterly revolting. I only actually have told one other person this, but the comment about, well, you know, you'll be leaking, basically he'd be leaking out of me for days and like chose to use that, you know, the, I love you word straight after that.
And just the, and the absolute denigration of, you know, him rubbing in how he had to clean up after the blood and like those comments, they don't leave you and the whole, you'll never be able to forget this now because it's like, and, and that it's those types of things that. You [00:45:00] know, when those people then make those comments, it's like, well, you know, if only you knew, and then, you know, the next, you know, well, I'm going to marry the next one and there was a 20, 20 age gap with that one.
But then when they say, well, why are there photos of you tied up on the internet? Why did you let him do that? And it's like, well, I didn't really do it by choice, you know? So it's really interesting how that experience just led through, but it took for me to get into a safe relationship with my now husband, who had been together 10 years to actually unpack everything and to let my body just go, okay, to just decompress.
Kristi: Well, this is a thing, and I've said this I used to like look at women, especially it's more obvious in like FDV cases, family domestic violence cases. But now that you're speaking out loud about this stuff, I'm thinking it would be very interesting if I had have [00:46:00] had the same knowledge I have now back and being a police officer again, like how much different I would have seen.
the warning signs and stuff. But from when I was in the police, I used to say, it's almost like the women have victim written on cross their forehead and the abusers know to pick them. Like, it's almost like, and so for instance, if you've got come from this abusive controlling you know, this, this groomed relationship that ends, of course, Someone is gonna come, come through and know you are the one to groom.
You are the next victim of theirs, and then you're do . Well, a friend of
Mel: the first one, a friend of the first one that had also known me since primary school, introduced me to the second one,
Kristi: oh, for fuck sake,
Mel: who was a very high standing correctional officer who front of a guard and. Was, oh, you were with a pedophile.
I hate [00:47:00] pedophiles. And I, you know, really, and now I look back and think, oh yeah, whatever. Like, you
Kristi: were waiting for your chance.
Mel: And so, and I'm not the only victim. I mean, I know, I mean, that person has had like 150 complaints in the span of like, it was a short span of time, but there are so many victims of that particular person.
And I, you know, I know some of them cause they're ex partners and do you think our local area command have done anything? No, we're all just idiots. It just may have made it up. We just made it up. Despite ring binders. Full of evidence. And I think like, you know, I mean, I've had police say, I think this, this was probably one of the best comments was one of the most memorable was, I'll say, so how's the relationship with your husband now?
And I'm like, yeah, good. You know, he's safe and XYZ. And so you're going to come back in five years and say, he abused you too.
Kristi: Are you shitting me?
Mel: I had two WDB CAS workers that day with me. One was an Aboriginal woman and just as before we went in, [00:48:00] one of them said, I know exactly what they're going to do to you. I'm going to record this. And she hit record on her mobile phone. And they didn't think they did anything wrong because in there, actually the guy was saying, well, did you record X, Y, Z?
Because we can use that. And so one of them had mentioned to their manager that they recorded because. Obviously this stuff is on there. Well, they've been trying to threaten us all with charges.
Kristi: For recording without their knowledge.
Mel: Yeah, even though, I mean, it wasn't in a police station, it was an open conversation, but, you know, the comments around that type of thing and, oh, you know, you allowed your child to be in an environment like that, you know, we may need to investigate you too.
It's like, hello, I tried to leave 12 times in three years, what help were you? That's still not
Kristi: trained. That's like a, that's basically threatening you with freaking trying to take your child off you. And then I
Mel: became a person of interest. Yeah, I believe. So, yeah, it's really, it's, it's so difficult and I, yeah, I feel like there's so much that can be learned, like, am I, am I frustrated with the [00:49:00] system?
Oh my goodness, yes. You know, I think the fact that, like, I'm Aboriginal as well. really pushes my advocacy buttons because I just feel like I'm brave now and I can speak up. It's taken me a long time to get to this point of saying, actually, cause I pretty much had everything taken. So I think at the end of the day, if me sharing any of this can help somebody else with an awesome, I'm, More than happy to do so.
And I think the biggest thing for police law enforcement, DCJ out of home care, and that's a whole other situation, the legal knowledge that I now have of how to put together cases. I've got 35 cases here on my desk that I've investigated, but they need to understand what this does to people's brains and how children's brains do not develop according to how they should when they've experienced abuse.
And, and even if that then happens later on in life. The same story goes, you have, I mean, if I was to go and get a scan on my brain, it would show different [00:50:00] things. Does it mean that I can't function and I'm not an intelligent, articulate adult who's capable of caring for children? No, it does not mean that, but it does mean that I may need to do certain things to stay well and to be able to have that insight.
And you know, it changes your life.
Kristi: It does mean that you have to that your responses to certain stimulus will be different. It does mean that, you know, you might, you might fall into that fawning response or that freeze response when something happens or that certain stimulus, like your it's because it's a learned behavior.
It's a learned it's a protection mechanism that our brains think about. basically set off when they feel in danger. Going back to you, what you just said, when you were saying, does it mean that I can't, you know, look after children and be a responsible adult and adult, you know, I grew up in a household of functioning alcoholics.
They were functioning alcoholics. Does that mean that they couldn't go to work every day? [00:51:00] Does that mean that they couldn't pay their bills? Did that, you know, like it's no different trauma and what happens to the brain is no different to any of that. Yeah, yeah, we give, we, we don't put as much pressure on people.
who are alcoholics or, you know, doing things like that.
Mel: And I think, you know, it comes back to this thing where, you know, like if you want to compare it to domestic violence and things like that you know, when you talk about coercive control and you look at psychological abuse, it's not as physically obvious.
It's on the outside. So, you know, if someone's to present to a police station with injuries and things like that, they're most likely going to get, you know, a quicker and better response because it's, they can see it. Yeah. It's physical outside. Exactly. And I think sometimes the better you present, the worse it can actually be for you.
Because then they'll say, Oh, you've constructed this. You've remember you, you've memorized this. Like you've been practicing this, you know, you know exactly what to say. You know, the law, you know, this, you know that, and it's like, well, because it's [00:52:00] sort Bit in the field too. I've
Kristi: done my homework.
Mel: Well, but also my tolerance levels are very high.
Like I, you know, there were some very big things that, you know, I had to respond to at work and they didn't bother me as much. I could just jump into doing because the emotion part, I was able to just compartmentalize, yes, do what I need to do. And then I could go home and just go, okay, I seem to decompress.
Kristi: Yes.
Mel: And when my husband took over for a bit. He got something really terrible happened in the first week when he was out there and he was just a mess like he because he's
Kristi: never he's never had to deal with that before and that was the first time you know it's interesting you say that because I grew up obviously I had a, an interesting background as well and that may, so this makes that made me the better police officer because I could cope with it.
traumatic stuff without actually reacting. I was completely and utterly like, you know, body parts and bits and pieces and all of the [00:53:00] things, right. I didn't have that, that shutdown response. I just went into the pro into, and I remember physically I had to go and do a warrant with, it was a high risk warrant with the TRG, the Tactical Response Group.
I was sitting in a car waiting for the TRG to fly past us, it was like, and they were, they were late, so it was like a 20 30 minute wait, sitting in the car, two other detectives, me and my freaking back then, like I'd put on a Cause we were expecting firearms. And I remember breathing doing basically I felt the adrenaline.
So this was the thing that I learned to do. I could feel adrenaline. I could feel all of the emotions bubbling up and I could push them back down and just get on with it. And, you know, and, and people say to me, how did you do your job for so long? How did you sit across the table from people that were telling you that they had sexually abused a child and you, and showing no emotion and I was like, because I, and now when you're talking about this stuff.
I was pre trained to deal with trauma. [00:54:00]
Mel: That's it.
Kristi: It made me ready for the job. Did it make me without all of the other stuff, did it mean that I could, you know, could like, there's only so much each person can withstand.
Mel: Yeah, that's it. Exactly. Yeah. And I think like, it's interesting that there's a parent that I worked with for a while, like four years.
And I remember saying to her one day, cause like she would come in and tell me some really big stuff. I remember saying, you know, I just want to ask, like, can you just tell, cause it will help me with my learning. Can I ask why you feel comfortable in sharing the things that you shared with me?
Because you shared some very vulnerable things and she looks at me and this comment will never leave me. She said, you're the only person that's never made me feel like a shit mum. And I remember thinking, you know, that just, I'd had to make reports about that mum before and I'd sat her down and I said, look, the things that you told me, I will need to make a mandatory report that this is what that looks like.
But what we're going to do is sit down and we're going to talk about the protective factors. We're going to look at what you've got happening in your life with the children, the things that [00:55:00] you're engaging in and what, and we, you know, essentially like she knew exactly what I was going to say. And that can build trust that builds a trusting relationship and you can do things openly.
And I don't see that a lot. Sadly we see people just, you know, and I say that when it's safe to do so, it's not always safe to do so, but likewise, yeah, we've had, we've had parents come in and there's a woman that absolutely just, yeah, discombobulated in the car park and was physically aggressive towards a child.
And I just remember thinking something's happened to her today. And I remember saying, how can you be like that? How can she love her kids? How can she excellent? And I, I, I didn't, that was not my first thought. My first thought was, I mean, obviously what she did was just horrific and
Kristi: she's just had a breakdown.
Like literally something's happened to laugh, but we've been there, I'm sure you've been there as a parent. I've been there as a parent, like not, not physically abusive to my child, but I know that. And Oh my gosh, a couple of thoughts came up for me before, [00:56:00] but I've had days where it went, especially when my PTSD was.
It's really raw where I just was not able to parent.
Mel: Yeah, it happens. I mean, I, I think, you know, my lucky stars that, you know, my husband's very aware of my situation and, you know, I mean, I, I tend to talk to my younger children 10 and under and I'll, you know, I'll say mom's, mommy's going to be sad and mommy's, but my husband gives me that space to do that.
And we sort of just will, you know, we pick up after each other, which is nice. But I think also normalizing to children how, like, obviously I don't go into detail about what's going on, but I think normal for them to see, you know, mom, mom or dad having a cry or feeling a bit sad and comforting each other and things like that.
So I, I think maybe that's I don't know some of the things that definitely led me to be in the situation that I was in. And it's, it's nice to be able to just to offer people in, when you, you know, when you're in your work context, whether you're a police officer or a [00:57:00] teacher or whatnot, just that unconditional positive regard, because at the end of the day, what that person says to you, it's not going to matter to you.
When you walk out the door and go home, you've got your family offering someone to actually say to you, you know what I'm really stuffed up. Like I've really done X, Y, Z. These are the reasons why I, you know, I can, these are the things we're going to do to make it better. I'm like, I just, despite what I've experienced, I, I try and approach every single situation with as much empathy as possible.
Does that mean that I make excuses for abuse? Absolutely not. And it's
Kristi: acknowledging it. It's just acknowledging it and and saying, well, it's there in the room with you, like it's literally there in the room with you and it's not, you know, it's not, there's no excuse for hurting others, but it is a contributing factor to why we, we struggled a parent, why we lose our shit, why we might not be, why we might be substance affected, why we might be not doing so well, it is going to, you know, have an impact on all of that.
It's not an excuse, but it's, [00:58:00] it's an acknowledgement of the fact that that does affect that.
Mel: And early intervention with that and giving people a trusting environment to, to come and talk to you about it is the best way that you can get in early and not let these things get worse. Because I look at, you know, particularly a couple of the families that I've been involved with.
And I think, gosh, you know, if this doesn't start to turn around now, this is not going to end well, like this is going to get worse. And I often think for the people that, I mean, Yeah, like my original abuser, like, I, I'd look at his family makeup and I think, okay, I know how that happened. Like, I do know how he ended up in that situation not making any excuses for it at all.
However, no one obviously saw early enough and his family essentially completely enabled his behavior throughout the entire time. And interestingly enough, he has never had a live in relationship ever, ever again, like after me, and neither would neither have the second one because they were both into children.
They are not interested in, in adult women. They are into children. [00:59:00] And I remember the older I got and the more I started to question things and, you know, have it, dare I have an opinion that was when things really started to escalate Yeah. It's been a very interesting experience. Definitely not for the faint hearted.
But my biggest message is to families just. Observe, keep talking to children and do not dismiss things that might just seem like nothing. Just remember to do that.
Kristi: I think one of the biggest things from listening to your whole story is know what those grooming behaviors are and question adults of their intentions.
Make it known that you're watching.
Mel: Absolutely. Yep.
Kristi: Because I'd imagine if your grandparents had a shown some, some, and it's so crazy that your grandmother kept all of that stuff. Like she knew you needed it.
Mel: Well, she, like when, when, you know, things really got out in the open, like, you know, I remember my grandmother being like horrified and whatnot.
And like the way my mother responded was [01:00:00] not, my mom wasn't. Narcissist. She wasn't a
Kristi: protective
Mel: parent. He made it all about herself and went and rang everyone she possibly could and my daughter's done and this and that, and she shamed, she essentially just embarrassed and shamed and made it worse. If, if anything, she actually pushed me more to him.
Whereas my grandmother's response was just, she couldn't do anything opposite to what my mom thought. Like she ended up living with us until she passed away and yeah, like she would have loved to have seen justice. She would have loved it. And she didn't do anything wrong. I have so much, you know, time and love for my grandparents because they shouldn't have had to have parented me.
Kristi: No, it's all on your mum's shoulders.
Mel: Yeah. And they, yeah. And my stepfather, like he's still, yeah, definitely here, but yeah, he, you know, same, same situation, but I think, you know, my grandparents did their best. And I think if she had a really known, like what was, you know, The intention she would have, yeah, let rip, like she, she was very protective in her way [01:01:00] and chaperoned me as best as she could everywhere.
And I think this just goes to show these people are brazen, like he knew that she was just, you know, downstairs a lot of the time, or even in the room of that band rehearsal hall. And there was like a little hallway with some lockers, like, you know, she was 20 feet away, like that's just brazen. And I think the thrill of that for him.
Was probably what fueled him in a sense.
Kristi: I'd imagine so. And this, and the horrible thing is, is that and I want people to understand that no child, no child, and you are a child, and even as an adult, you were a groomed person who had friggin, had basically been shown that he could do whatever he wanted, so what's the point of fighting it?
So no child is ever asking for it. No child's ever fucking wanting it. They it basically comes down to the fact is that if, if, if anyone had has spoken up and, and actually [01:02:00] shown you an ounce of fricking kindness and said, Hey, what is going on here? Like you probably would have said, well, if someone had said, and I've, I've spoke to a funny enough, another male on my podcast, and she was in a similar situation, groomed it.
As a young girl teen, multiple offenders over years and ended up in a relationship, ended up with a child with her abuser. And she was saying that, you know, like, it wasn't until she was about 28, 29 that she realized that she was actually, she'd been abused because no one had ever put it in that language before.
Mel: Yep. I didn't, I didn't realize. And I think, yeah, like, obviously my, that next husband who really, he pushed it, like he, I remember him forcing me to go to the police and report it. He was so, and I think that's because it was a complete deflection away from what he was actually doing. And I, but the response that I got after doing This detective I'll never forget.
He was from Penrith police. He literally said, well, it couldn't have been that bad. You stayed [01:03:00] nine years and had a baby. And from that moment on, I thought, okay,
Kristi: well, if you're getting that kind of response, why would you go and report anything? Why would you talk to anyone about it? Like, this is the thing, like I could kick police.
I was a police officer. I hope I was a good police officer, but sometimes I just shake my head at the thing. And I look back on my time in the place sometimes. And I think, They are very, like, this is why I, you know, why I wasn't consider, I wasn't one of the, the people, like, you know, I, I was an ostracized towards the end because I was pushing back on some of these beliefs, you know, like I was a target after once I started putting my head out and saying, Hey, that's not okay.
We shouldn't be treating victims like that. That's a victim
Mel: situation too. I've look, I'm like I was saying to you before we logged on, like I'm, I'm barred, I'm prohibited, I'm persons causing harm, everything, because God forbid you do the actual right thing in your report. And I've recently had someone from like very senior, from a very Big organizations say, so, you know, [01:04:00] you just, just, can I get this straight because you diligently reported and you did your job that most childcare centers don't, but that's why XYZ happened.
I was like, yeah. And he said, Mel, I just don't know why you did it. Why didn't you just go with the flow? And I said, well, you know, when you asked me if my trauma and whatnot impacts my decision making, my hypervigilance, I said, well, when I answered yes, it's because I never, ever, ever want to be seen by any child or any person as an active participant or the bystander that did not say or do something about it.
I don't ever want to be that person and that, every time someone does something in an early childhood setting, I will report it every single time I don't care if the director of quality and compliance says things to me, which he did direct quote, I can understand if you've got to keep the doors open, you've got families, you're not going to provide a service to, I can understand that you wouldn't, but I know why people would just think, Oh, we'll just hire less than ideal to keep the doors open.
Well, I'm sorry, less than ideal is what got how many children sexually assaulted? [01:05:00] Over multiple states and 98
Kristi: in that one case, and I think the other one was 100 and something children by two people.
Mel: And what happened, the woman that shed the light on it, she's now in, you know, all sorts of problems and legal issues.
And so unfortunately we have a culture that, that promotes silence. And I, as an Aboriginal woman, I know I'd be doing my mob, a huge service and my, my father, my grandfather, if I didn't stand up and say something, and I wanted to teach my daughters that if something's happening or someone, you know, is being hurt or a friend or whatnot.
Come talk to me or talk to somebody about it. I think that's the biggest thing we see to keep talking, keep the communication lines open and let's make, let's draw as much awareness to these topics and arm people with, with knowledge and education.
Kristi: And yeah, and like, let's blow a lid off all of these secrets because that's where fucking this shit festers.
And I've, I've thrown a lot of F bombs in [01:06:00] today. I'm sorry, people. I'm just so, I'm just so pissed off with this. I'm sorry, Mel. Like, just, I think we need to have another conversation because there's so much more that you could like enlighten me and enlighten listeners and people about, because the thing is, is that there's not enough anger and.
And there's not enough screaming from the rooftops about this yet. There's not enough people going, no, the people we've put, we've elected, the people we've put into power, the people that are meant to be protecting us are not doing their job.
Mel: Well, when we talk about the review into DCJ Talbot and Lauren Dean are currently conducting a review into DCJ.
Now, what's really interesting is that they are choosing who they speak to. Yeah,
Kristi: of course, because it's not, they're not going to. Speak to the people they need to speak to. They're going to speak to the people that make it look squeaky.
Mel: Exactly. And so, I mean, I believe that I've been put forward as one of the people, cause I have like actual [01:07:00] evidence of I mean, actually across four government departments, I have evidence.
I have reminder folders that are stacked and tapped and tagged and put together. As, as cases, there's no way that they're going to speak to me because they don't want to see the evidence that I want to see the financial corruption we have put as a country, we have put a price tag on trauma, and, you know, it's very interesting when you see children come from, you know, a functioning family, they're put into early childhood settings, and then three to six months in.
You know, we're starting to hear educators say, Oh my God, this child's got all these challenging behaviors and whatnot. And parents are noticing changes and what's actually happening. These children's basic needs are being not met. They're not even not being met. They're being ignored. So then by the time we get to kindergarten, They've probably been suspended, excluded, whatnot.
We've got these kindergarten classes where they're flipping tables. Now, these children don't all have ADHD. They don't all need stimulant medication. They, they have [01:08:00] not been nurtured. They have not had the attachment that they've needed. They have not had what they need developmentally at those stages.
We are abusing our children in itself. starting in early childhood. And I sometimes question, and I'm going on a re, I'm, I've got no, keep going. I'm just sitting here going, Oh my God, that would make your head roll footage. Like I have cases like there's a lot, but I think we. We, we're, we're trying to keep people quiet and at the end of the day, if this continues, it actually really terrifies me to see the trajectory of what our country is going to be like in the next 10 to 15 years.
It's scary. And I don't understand how, I mean, I have been truth bombing on LinkedIn lately about me, that we've been paid from certain places to we deemed that that's what it was for. I'm highly concerned. Absolutely hard. I think,
Kristi: I think this is a whole nother episode because I don't know you follow me on TikTok.
I think so you would have seen [01:09:00] that I shared about that four year old who about protective behaviors or body safety and stuff and the amount of people that are popping up on those. Like, I mean, it's been viewed. 500, 000 times over 500, 000 times now. And the amount of like, there must be over a thousand comments.
And in those comments, there's parents like saying, yeah, my child, this child, that child, the, the, and you know, I think, look, I used early. My daughter was in childcare when I became a detective, but sorry, but when I became a police officer but I ended up getting an au pair. For my daughter was in like with an au pair, not ideal either because most of them are not trained, but she was in her own home and she was, you know, for the most part, I think safe.
But she you know, I ended up, she was in early childhood for maybe a year and a half before I got an au pair because it was so expensive and I couldn't afford it anyway. And then but you know, like I look back on that and I think, how would you [01:10:00] even know when your kids are nonverbal and, or they're very early.
They, they, they don't have, it's just, yeah. Opens a big can of worms.
Mel: And in early childhood, Christie, they're not trained either. We, you're allowed to start now. You're allowed to start working early childhood setting, even if you haven't signed up to a course, you have to sign up within three months. And like, I mean, I fake qualifications.
That was one of my last posts on LinkedIn. We've got people that have non legitimate qualifications. One girl walked in, she wanted 45 bucks an hour, came from a recruitment agency that's owned by another large center. And I just asked her a couple of questions. Cause you know, straight up my brain's like, Hmm, something's a bit off here.
And I looked at the certificate, I was like, Oh, interesting. And. Yeah, she paid 2, 000 to some guy that came to her front door for it.
Kristi: Yeah.
Mel: Oh my gosh. Let's,
Kristi: let's come back. So for anyone listening, and I feel like we just had a conversation, I don't feel like this was a podcast at all. If anyone listening, Mel's going to come back and she's going to talk [01:11:00] about early childhood education and maybe she can, maybe Mel, you can give some advice to parents.
Who don't have a choice but to put them in. So how to find a better, like how to find the best options and what questions to ask. That might be a really good setting as well. Last question. My
Mel: biggest message to you, please, like I have, I have a hate club of The whole world pretty much. Like, no, you
Kristi: don't, I
Mel: don't hate you.
Don't, don't ever be scared to speak because you have been labeled as that person. That's annoying or difficult, or because you are unapologetically raising issues that people are like, Ooh, that's a little bit too hard to talk about. Like I, I have essentially lost a lot. However, what I have has gained this.
And if my voice. Can be used to help other people and to give other people the ability to share their stories. Well, then my job's done and I'm happy to be hated. But at the end of the day, you've got a question. If, you know, if we can't really look at what's going on and we can't address it, how on earth is this [01:12:00] problem going to get any better?
Kristi: Yeah. And you're cracking exactly right. You just have to follow anyone I follow on LinkedIn and they're saying the same things. Like money can get thrown at problems, but we are not making changes. There's no changes because it comes from the, that comes from the top down and they're not willing to change it because it makes them uncomfortable or it makes them look bad.
So there, no changes are happening. All right, well, we'll stop it there. So if people want to connect with you, Mel, how do they connect with you?
Mel: At the moment, just probably through LinkedIn, I, I will open my TikTok actually, I've been needing to do that later today. So yeah, I have TikTok unique team solutions.
You can, yeah, LinkedIn. I'm under Mel James. Or yeah, you can just email me at unique team [email protected]. But yeah, so happy to have, yeah. Being able to come and share I'm having you back.
Kristi: You're, you're, I hope you know that you're, you're coming back until you get all of this off your chest. And we can, I think [01:13:00] what you, what you've imparted like fully blown blew my mind, but what you've imparted is so, so vitally important.
And I don't, no way, protected parents, protected people, protect people who are doing the right thing. I'm not going to think that you're too much or annoying or any of those things and you don't care anyway. They're going to think that that you basically, you, you made me feel braver by how much you've shared and how vulnerable you've been.
And I say this to victims and survivors all the time. Every time you tell your story. To the right people. You have to be careful who you tell your story to. Every time you tell your story to the right people, you, that story loses power over you.
Mel: Exactly. At the end of the day, if systems or people want to make a spectacle out of you, or try to blame you for the things that you're raising, say, but that happened on your watch.
It's like, you know, but. We're talking about it. It's happening everywhere. It's the, it's the, it's the people that aren't talking about it, but they need to be more concerned about. [01:14:00] So you're absolutely right. It's just, it has to be spoken about and yeah, I'm really grateful to be able to start to do that now.
So it's just a shame it's taken 40, but you know,
Kristi: I think that something happens to women when we get past 30, 35, we go, fuck it, fuck everyone. Like we're going to do this anyway. I was, I was silenced for so long and now I'm like, and I'm, and you'll get the haters. You'll get the people who disagree. You'll get the people who are like, but what about, and you know, who cares?
Like I'm here telling my truth and that's all that matters. And, and thank you for telling your truth too.
Mel: Yeah, no, thank you for having me and for being so, yeah, it's really nice to have such a in depth and robust discussion.
Kristi: Oh, you're welcome. I can't wait to book this in for another one.
Mel: That's great.
Kristi: All right. See ya. No worries. Bye.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is [01:15:00] why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected].
Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention. Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support.
Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse.
See you next time.
